Actually, not to be picky here, but the Greek word for cross is STAVROS, not Stauros (not sure where the stauros spelling came from). Er... leastaways that's how us modern day Greeks say it.
CG
Cross vs. Stake: Does it REALLY friggin' matter?
by Funchback 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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richard
Perhaps one of the reasons for rejecting the cross was Rutherford's intense dislike of Roman Catholicism and related symbolism. Btw, besides the WTS there are other religious organization who teach this 'stake' doctrine - "Christian Churches of God", for example. Others within Christian Fundamentalism teach that the 'cross' had the shape of a ' T '.
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jgnat
Leoalia posted a great study on the subject. A poster on that thread asked, "What is the big deal?" The big deal is that this minor matter is held up as another example of the supposed WTBTS accuracy and scholarship as opposed to Christendom's Churches.
...so as soon as their interpretation is challenged, all of a sudden it is "no big deal?"
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/36340/1.ashx
Matthew 7:2
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Funchback
You all have made some brilliant comments/facts/observations.
Good job to all!
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heathen
Leolaia-- The fact that pilot did all in his power to have jesus released is enough for me to conclude that the romans did not accuse him of sedition . Who was it that mentioned the jewish custom of setting a prisoner free on the sabbath , the jews or pilot ? It was clearly pilot who thought of it and the jews picked one of the most hated criminals instead of jesus . It was the sanhedrin that turned jesus over to the romans claiming that jesus said he was the king and not ceasar in an attempt to infuriate the romans but not even that worked . I think pilot feared the crowd that gathered more than anything so in an attempt to move them to pity he scourged jesus hoping again the crowd would change their mind . Eventually he gave in and arranged for the execution . The romans did carry out the execution but the whole thing was perpetrated by the jews . The jewish religious leaders hated jesus and then later went to killing christians in the name of the mosaic law .
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Hyghlandyr
Each belief of the watchtower society is carefully crafted to create an us vs them mentality. By causing members of other christian churches to seem like the "other" their attempts to evangelize the Witnesses can fall flat. The other in this case being relegated, as in many cases historically, to that of a demonized position. Consider these beliefs:
1...Michael dying on a stake instead of Jesus dying on a cross. The instances of christians believing the JW position is almost nil. Even in cases, however rare, that an organization believes in the stake position instead of the cross, they most certainly won't accept the michael theory. This is an immediate and easy red flag for Jehovahs Witnesses then that requires no effort on the part of their leaders once the doctrine is accepted. Visit someone else's congregation and the sight of the cross will immediately cause the Witness to dismiss the person and their congregation as being members of Satan's system, false worshipper, thus satan worshippers.
2...That is assuming the witness would accept the invitation to the person's congregation. Imagine a sunday meeting, and a member from another congregation approaches a witness and invites the witness to visit his congregation next wensday. How excited the witness would be. Now take the same invitation and use a slightly older version of the word congregation, "church." Instantly the person and their belief is demonized.
3...Birthdays, Christmas, Thanksgiving, Flag Day, Memorial Day, Samhain, Mother's Day. Satan inspired, controlled and run. Attempts by christians, false christians, to lead true christians away from Jehovah's Visible Organization. Friend's Day though is ok. I know some of you will say friend's day is like a birthday, but it isnt. For instance it usually occurs a couple days before or after ones birthday. Second the presents are not required, unless you go to the party, of course. Anniversarys are ok. Please do not do as I did and request not to be given a graduation party, or to receive graduation gifts. Because those are ok.
4...Door to door being the keystone of the preaching work. Seriously? Does anyone really believe that this man-god-son-of-god-fable actually had to go door to door to get folks to listen to him? The dude who healed thousands? tens of thousands? raised the dead? He needed to knock on doors? Now knockin on doors is cool. I had lots of fun doin it. But that isnt a mark of a true christian, compared to a christian say who runs a mission? Or another who assists with a youth group? Which as we all know is in itself a sign of being a false christian, a part of satans visible organization.
5...Marraige or dating outside the group. Ghastly.
6...Are the Adam's family really that bad? If you do not think so, just watch the reaction of a child raised as a witness, even before baptism, when asked to watch it or something similar at a school mate's home.
Each belief, designed to create an instant emotional reaction, an intense apprehension of the other. Thus demonized, proper conduct, understood to mean remaining in the group and under its control, is assured.
The history of the cross has its roots in pegan crap and I don't suppose, just as the WT points out, its use in worship brings any glory to God.
Of course the history of the cross is pagan. The entire christian myth is a rehashing of far more ancient myths told the world over for thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of years. It should not be expected then that the fable borrows from other fables?
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Valis
It should not be expected then that the fable borrows from other fables?
the funny thing is that those myths are repeated worlwide anount ressurection or reincarnation, yet you have groups that hate each other, slander one another, kill each other, and basically make life miserable because they are so terribly right in what thier estimation of what Dog is.
Sincerely,
District Overbeer of the "Athiest" class
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Hyghlandyr
Well the reason for that valis is that all the other religions are wrong. You see what sets our religion apart from everyone else's, is that their beliefs are false. They CLAIM to have the Christos who died on the stake or cross. But while the story of that Christos is almost identical to our Christos, their stories are just fantasy. After all it is silly to believe that THAT fable man who never existed could walk on water. OUR Christos though was real, and DID indeed walk on water, he did, verily he did, verily he was born, verily he lived, verily he walked, verily he was arrested, verily he died, verily he was ressurected...verily verily verily. To borrow from one of the Church Fathers...Ireneaus? Maybe it was someone else.
In answer to the question does it matter if it was a cross or a stake? Yes. Both are phallic symbols. But the cross has the addition of the testes. Thus it more fully represents the Christos. After all, you cannot annoint without the annointing,....."oil" and you cannot acquire such without the crossbeam, symbolically and literally of course.
I sense some perplexed looks? Well to bring you up on a bit of history, the word Christos simply meant annointed one. The annointed was not done with olive oil boys and girls. Christianity has its roots in phallic religion, earth centered sun worship. The sun being the ultimate phallus. And the literal phallus of the worshipper that had one, being a symbol of the sun. The annointing not being simply from the phallus either, but also from the moon, representative of the female. So yes cross vs stake does matter.
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FirstInLine
The WTBTS is stigmatizing the foresmost recognizable and used symbol of Christianity with lies. In that sense yes it is an important issue. Whats so funny is that the WTS through its history had this reckless way of speaking with dire confidence concerning things that they were using simply to cast a distinction. They have begun to quietly put down the issue of the Cross.
I have read in more recent WTS publications that they quietly state its controversial and no one really knows what he died on.
Well he died on a cross-like object. His arms were certainly outstretched not directly over his head. The Romans executed people with crosses.
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Hyghlandyr
Well he died on a cross-like object. His arms were certainly outstretched not directly over his head. The Romans executed people with crosses.
Um, most likely not. If he existed at all, he was most likely on a stage performing one of countless passion plays that were put on for audiences around the ancient world. Is there controversey? Not really... Most people, atheists and christians and others alike, blindly believe that this man actually existed. Just as there is no "evidence" that he died on a cross or a stake, there is also no evidence extant from the first century that verifies his existence. To further complicate things, any secular evidence exists from the eleventh century onward. Written prior to then? Maybe, though doubtful.