I Find it all interesting!

by glode 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • dins
    dins

    Welcome Glode,

    I particularly enjoyed reading your posting.

    I was raised as a JW and in our cong you couldn't sneeze without someone noticing. Somehow, by some means, everyone seemed to know your business and was more than happy to get involved.

    The question I have to ask of you is, why do you stay in? I don't know your circumstances, but from what I have read it sounds like you might have one foot on each right now. Your congregation may be liberal, but you sound intelligent enough to know that the things you participate in (although perfectly normal for everyone else)would be frowned upon in the society.

    Just wondering what your thoughts are on that...

    Dins

  • JT
    JT

    globe

    welcome and you can say whatever you feel like here - freedom of thought and expression is a wonderful thing

  • JT
    JT

    abaddon

    nice reasoning points excellent

    james

  • glode
    glode

    Hey there! Thanks for the great welcome all!

    I love debating, all my friends will attest to this! Its definitely exercise for the mind!

    Make no mistake, our cong. isn’t necessarily lax, they just tend not to go “beyond the law” like many do, they seek the MEANING and motive of what the society is saying, like the desire to prioritize studying (in regards to school activities) I think a lot of the problems stem from too many unintelligent bros reading the “letter of law” rather than the meaning.

    In my cong, if something comes to the attention of the elders, they deal with it according to the law (I know, some of my friends have had their share of commitees) never have they been threatened or intimidated, they are simply shown that they violate rules set outin the bible, such that deal with sex or whatever.

    Back to the intelligence factor, I can definitely say I am lucky in my cong, the service commitee is made up of all university educated career men, the PO was an executive in a publishing company before retirement, and the secretary and service overseer both hold master degrees and have professional careers behind them, the other elders are all down to earth people as well the type that will invite you to go for a beer after work, or play a hockey game against a neighbouring cong!

    This is by no means a bad thing!! Indeed, it harbours an atmosphere of tolerance, while not shying back from the tough issues, as for the shunning of Dfed ppl, I agree this is regrettable, however, the ones Dfed usually ARE guilty of something, and those that areinnocent would hopefully understand that no one, not even the elders are perfect.

    As to my views, I cannot say that we are a perfect organization, as obviously there are problems, otherwise this board wouldn’t exist! (tee hee) I do believe however, that we are the closest thing to “the truth” that has come along yet.

    Im reminded of what I said during my bapt questions, the last one was ”why do you wanna do this”or something like that, I knew the standard response was “I want to devote my life to Jehovah and to do his work hereon earth” but I didn’t give that answer, what I said was “I feel that as a group, we should be judged by the conduct of the members, how they live their lives, I cant speak for everyone, but I do want to live my life according to the principles that I have learned” the elder giving me the questions was like “wow, that is the best answer I have heard, shows you really THINK about this. You are getting baptized a bit older than most do, andi wish more people would wait so they had the reasoning ability” I never forgot that because its true.

    As for the question about blood transfusions, me and my gf were discussing this, since we plan to have a family after we are married, I will obey the “abstain from blood” command as it is in the bible, as long as I can, I will definitely seek out alternatives, but what I told my gf was this: “if I have to damn myself to save my family, I will do so, without hesitation” I would sacrifice anything for a daughter or mate, just as one would take a bullet for them, I would suffer the consequences without hesitation.

    So yes, I do think it’s the truth, and yes,I want to be apart, as imperfect asit may be…

    I will not be a sheep. Ever. I think for myself.

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    Glode you said

    I will obey the “abstain from blood” command as it is in the bible

    Really interesting. Maybe you, as a liberal can help me with something. The WTS keeps telling me this is a bible-based doctrine. Yet the bible doesn't explain the following:

    - why "specialized" fractions are approved yet major components are banned. This seems odd seeing both are made by specialized machines and drugs. Where are they in the bible?
    - why white cells are permitted in a perpherial stem cell autographing procedure but not as a transfusion even though there really is no difference.
    - why albumin is allowed because it natually passes the placental barrier yet so do fetal red blood cells and white blood cells that are banned. Even though the June 1 1990 WT QFR denies this!!!
    - why hemoglobin was re-stated as banned in 1998 but then allowed by June 15, 2000
    - why it is a disassociation offence instead of a disfellowship offence as of April, 2000
    - why the bible does not use the words "sustain" and "taking in" like the WTS uses but actually uses the word "eating".
    - why the Oct. 15, 2000 WT QFR purposely misquotes Prof. Gorman remarks on Lev.
    - why the bible talks about "not eating" blood for all mankind but Deut 14:21 says its okay to sell the dead animal full of blood to a foreigner. Obviously, God wouldn't all others to break his own law.
    - why the penality in Lev. 17:15 deals only with cleaning oneself and no died in the bible because they failed to wash their clothes

    Also please consider"
    -why the WTS literature says it helped prevent AIDs with its blood ban but in the 1970s approved Factors VIII and IX for hemophilia and organ tranplants in the 1980s that allowed a lot of people a chance to catch AIDs and Hep. C
    - why the WT uses the word "consistent stand" on the doctrine when their history shows all sorts of changes from banning then approving some blood parts

    Please, you and your girlfriend should sit down and read over (www.ajwrb.org Then have a frank and real discussion about the blood doctrine and its effect on the children.

    hawk

  • glode
    glode

    HelloHawk!

    Definitely food for thought!

    I looked at the website you gave, basically what I would respond to is that it seems that the society is changing its stance on many things, my reasoning is that they simply acknowledge that the bible is not a medical reference book, it is rather cryptic, all it says is blood, it doesn’t specify what parts of blood are to be banned.

    They have stated, that the matter of blood fragments is to be a conscience matter, something which basically is them saying “we don’t have any clear evidence this is wrong, so if you can justify it, its up to you” I don’t find anything wrong with this stance.

    Since obviously you have done a lot of research on this topic, I accept that you are telling the truth about certain things “white cell autographing” etc, I am no medical student, and wont claim to be hehe, so I don’t really know, I believe technology is advancing a pace, and as such blood is being broken down and re worked into what we need the question before the society (and us) is” when does it become broken down enough?” since the abstaining from blood transfusions is a part of doctrine which I believe in, the scripture in deut you quoted about selling an animal with blood to foreigners, I believe that since the Israelites were the only ones under the Mosaic law, they clearly wouldn’t matter about the other nations.. did Jehovah give note of what was to happen to anyone outside the realm of Israel? no, why? Because Israel was the chosen nation, there wa sno intervention to anywhere else on earth, Africa, East Asia, N America etc. this shows that Jeh was focusing on his people.

    As for the AIDS thing I also believe it’s a little cheap of the society to take credit for it, basically yes, it’s a benefit, but I don’t really agree with them flouting it, I dont see anything wrong with saying “accepting blood is against my beliefs” it wouldn’t matter if there was no health risks associated at all.

    I believe for myself, I wouldn’t take blood, that is my choice, that is my faith in god’s law, I don’t KNOW for sure if he makes the distinction between eating or taking in, or whatever… that is where a leap of faith comes in. but, like I stated, I wouldn’t allow someone I loved to die(assuming it was my choice of course), if i would be DA, or worse, punished by god, I would accept that as the price of saving a family member. Would you not risk your life or possessions or friends to save your son or daughter? No decent human being would.

    I must say this discussion is keeping meon my toes!

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    glode,

    I was in BC back in 1996. It is a beautiful place and very relaxed compare to southern Ontario.

    I will come back and talk later but I want you to really think hard about you just said. If you actually have a University degree then start "slowly" reading (www.ajwrb.org - All of it and you don't need to be a meds student either!! There is good section on the bible verses and how they are twisted and everything else but if I were you I would sit down with the girlfriend and slowly go through it piece by piece. Then check out the references to confirm everything. Don't just take their word for it.

    Keep in mind when reading AJWRB over that people, little children, are dying and have died all over the world because of this doctrine. In fact there is a 1994 Awake! magazine that proudly displays the death of 26 kids. We are talking little kids here not adults!!!! One would hope that if one innocent little child who doesn't know squat about some blood doctrine is taking one for the team instead of receiving a life saving platelet transfusion after chemotherapy, that the leaders better have a solid and consistent reason for doing it as well as shunning any parent who violates it. Also keep in mind the people who run this site at AJWRB are former and present elders and HLC people. Why do you think they are doing it? They don't want to bring the WTS down? But they know much more than your avg. yoggi bear. When you think about all this don't think about yourself. After you read AJWRB over, think about how your conscience feels of the death of a little child?

    Oh, please read this post over carefully (especially Maximus and Marvin Shilmer.

    ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=6288&site=3#76784

    Again check out Maximus' references.

    hawk

  • philo
    philo

    Hello again glode,

    I duplicated my post for the whole board because I wanted a quick answer. Why? Because I happened to mention your point about 'Survivor' to a friend on the phone today. She thought it unlikely that any JW could take exception to such a harmless show, whereas I thought it was entirely plausible they could. In other words, she felt your information was either a joke, or a lie. Anyway, if the DO said it at the DC, then IN HER FACE.

    Oh well without an accumulation of such petty victories I would have nothing to be miserable about.

    Btw, my friend lives in another country, so your thoughts have been flying about today! Thanks for your response.

    Another point G**. Would you agree with most of the below quotation as a definition towards a learning community?

    Group and inter-personal interactions involve the use of language (a social process) in the re-organisation and modification of personal understandings and knowledge structures, so learning is simultaneously a private and a social phenomenon.
    • Learning collaboratively implies peer exchange, interaction amongst equals, successful negotiation of power relationships in the group, and interchangeability of roles. Anthony Kaye 1995

    In terms of religious knowledge (as opposed to sales techniques) do you think the JW community is a 'learning community'? Or is it rather the reverse?

    I believe in the Watchtower community, group and IP interactions and social processes are used to reinforce and police adherence to the goals and understandings of the Watchtower's hierarchy. Such 'group and IP interactions and social processes' include here, 'brotherhood', peer pressure, repetitive meetings, and shunning. And the best example I can give is the 'apostate' policy which demonizes all who ask serious questions about the community, its beliefs, goals, and leaders.

    As an educated person, how do you feel about this, set against the claim that Jehovah's Witnesses are "the best educated people on earth."

    Philo
    (I'm genuinely interested in your response, I'm not hoping to start a war)

    **Hey, watchout when people abreviate your name, they want somthing!

  • Kismet
    Kismet

    Hey Glode, welcome to the board.

    I'm a fellow Canadian but over to the east...you know that most hated eastern City... :)))

    I have spent a lot of time in the interior of BC with many friends in Vernon, Kamloops, etc. While visiting I gave a couple of talks at the Vernon Assembly Hall complex.

    I agree that most of the BC cong are a lot more liberal minded than those on the Island or in Vancouver or elsewhere in Canada. You are indeed fortunate. Though Georgetown (bethel) has often spent a lot of time with the travelling overseers for BC/Alberta trying to curb the liberal tendancies.

    I look forward to reading more of your thoughts and observations here.

    Kismet

  • LDH
    LDH

    Glode

    It's nice to meet you. I just wanted to add one point. You mentioned that your G/F was on HS sports Teams as a Witness.

    She has many of the posters on this board and others to thank. It wasn't until the WBTS took their hardline on extra-curricular activities and basically a whole #*$&load of young adults left that the WBTS began to re-think their policy.

    So they don't rethink their policies in a dynamic growth oriented manner. Their only concern is 'keeping people in.' Why else do you think that they have loosened their standards on

    Voting
    College
    Extra-curricular activities

    and a ton of other stuff? Jehovah's standards don't change! If college was bad in the 60's 70's and 80's, why is it ok now? If thousands of brothers in Malawi died over the political card carrying issue, why is it ok to Vote now? (Nov 99 KM)

    Look around you--maybe not in your cong. but certainly here in the US an entire generation is missing from the WBTS. These are the people who gave up college based on the WBTS at that time to window wash and pioneer, because this old system wasn't going to make it past 2000?

    Now don't get me wrong, I am very happy for you---you seem to be a well adjusted young man. But credit where credit is due. Many have paved the way for your 'new life' with their spirituality.

    You seem like just a 'normal guy.' This is how JW's want to be perceived now--as a mainstream religion where everyone is 'normal.'
    I am going to try to find a thread about Normalcy that I started a while ago...I really hope you will read it. Esp. the part about being different from the world.

    Thank you for contributing.
    Lisa

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit