If Jesus died so Christians can be saved...... (page 2)

dustyb

Fortunately, we all know you're just frustrated 'cause you can't get any, so we are disregarding your disregard. - Phanton Stealth aww comeon, we all know he can't get any, you don't have to mention it to everyone else!!

Dark Knight

The whole logic behind the reasoning that jesus died for our sins so that we might be saved totally escapes me.

Abaddon

Cypher:

I just think that calling a whole religion 'idiocy' is really being unfair.

Well, broaden focus for a minute.

Imagine that someone was claiming that due to what it said in x book written by y at z time, a,b,and c would happen, and that you if you do q then r would happen (r being a positive outcome). They couldn't prove it, but they'd assure you they were right.

If you allow for some religions not having a textual basis but rather a verbal one, then essentially the above describes most religious beliefs.

It also describes most cases of fraud.

In fraud you are typcally asked to believe by doing something (typically giving money) you will gain something (typically more money), and the evidence given is very much of the "x said y in z so you too can be a winner" class. Proof of the claims is unsubstansiatable, you have to go on an assurance.

Now, if someone invests $3,000,000.00, or even $300.00 onthe basis of assurances and is defrauded, everyone thinks they were an idiot.

If someone invests their entire life in a religion on the basis of assurances then people immediately tend to defend them from criticism.

Huh?

LittleToe

Cypher50:Agreed, with the caveat that Galaxy7 raises.

Bradley:
That's insulting, dude.
It's also a position of ignorance, as you've self-confessedly had very little to do with religion since your exit rom the borg.

Devon:
Was this a driveby shooting?
I saw it when you first posted, and decided to keep out of it, but finally succumbed...

If, as you say, they were merely puppets, why do they deserve praise, especially since they went whole hog to make things uncomfortable.
It's a little bit analogous of the way the Babylonian's treated Israel (if you follow the line of reasoning about God directing them to "chastice" Israel).

Undecided

If you look at it the way most Christains believe, using the trinity doctrine, then God presented himself to himself as a sacrifice so he could forgive people of something that their ancester did centuries ago. Why not just forgive them without all the ritual?

Ken P.

desib77

Undecided,

That is the whole thing about the Trinity that doesn't make since to me. I'm trying to be open but having a hard time with that doctrine. Why did it have to be so complicated. If God died for us then why say he sent his son? Also, why not just forgive?

Sorry, didn't mean to get off topic.

bebu

I agree. And here's another thing: Jesus died for the entire world not just Xtians. So, nobody isn't saved.

Some people think that (universalism). But I think that's not quite it.

Jesus told the parable of the king inviting people to a wedding banquet, and the invited guests gave excuses. It is possible to turn down an invitation. But everyone gets one.

Why not just forgive them without all the ritual?

When I was very little, I lied to my mom and got sent to my room. Suddenly it hit me: I had sinned just like "bad guys" did, and I was not able to go to heaven (I was not raised a dub, but a Catholic). I bawled and bawled and bawled until my folks came in and got out of me what was upsetting me so. They spent 10 minutes trying to convince me that God forgave me and I would go to heaven. I quit crying, but I was totally suspicious about their argument, which was simply, "Because God forgives." ...Now, how did they KNOW that?? That seemed to be a pretty outlandish hope, and even at that age I needed reassurance.

I guess that is why God went thru a "ritual": for our own reassurance about His willingness to forgive.

bebu

funkyderek

I guess that is why God went thru a "ritual": for our own reassurance about His willingness to forgive.

Would you have been reassured if your parents had nailed your pet rabbit to your bedroom door as a "ritual"?

Sargon

This whole concept of God's justice confuses the hell out of me. He's made-up the rules as he's gone along and they've followed no consistant pattern.

Let's see, the first example of HIS justice... don't eat the fruit of this tree or on this day you will surely die. But that wasn't the punishment inflicted. The punishment inflicted on Adam was to be banished from the garden and forced to live on the sweat of his labour. He went on to live for another...what 900 years. (don't remind me of the 1,000 day crap because that just shows how meaningless time is to an eternal). Eve, who wasn't given any orders not to eat of this tree was given the more viscous punishment. I guess if she hadn't sinned childbirth would have like a sunday walk in the park.

But the biggest part of HIS punishment theat HE failed to mention to Adam was that not only would Adam suffer for his sins, all his descendants would inherit his punishment. What a fair, loving, kind, just God this is. I'd rather live under Saddam's regime.

Not only do we inherit Adam's punishment, but we can't avoid sin because it is our birthright. For our birthright, which this loving God decided to grant us due to Our Ancestors sin we might now be destroyed by this God at Armageddon. Unless of course we accept the fact that HE, sent his son down to Earth to die a violent death. It's never really explained why an innocent man has to die to erase the sins we were bornm into. If this God is so forgiving, and since he's making up all the rules; couldn't he have come up with a better plan.

As a justice system, this is so illogical...it's laughable. Two people commit a crime, billions of people are penalized for this crime, and the only innocent person in the whole story comes and pays our bail. British Common Law may be confusing, but at least it is based on justice and fair-play.

Will Power

Maybe the emphasis should not be on the death, but on life - the resurrection ! That's the only reason Jesus died - to show us that there is life. Nevermind all the guilt inducing laws that had been (and are being) put in place. If there is no law, there is no sin ! Remember that story? Love in its pure form is the best energy that we can emit. Is that why the bible says "God is love"

Energy (which we are all made of) -once created, never dies it just changes form. This is science but is also what has been believed throughout the history of time. The symbolisms are varied but were definitely in place before science proved it.

Most peoples, cultures, religions (excluding Witnesses of course) believe in some sort of a continuation of energy after you die - an afterlife - the extent of which is always a good discussion but....

You cannot have a resurrection, re-birth, afterlife, energy in new dimension, unless you first have death. That is death of the body, the vessel, the flesh. Lots of stories about this in the bible as well. Didn't Jesus say..."Today you will be with me in paradise" after you die here today - it is not over - there is a new dimension of energy, no more crying, no more headaches, bills, injustice,....like a paradise. Saved.

I dunno

Will power

If Jesus died so Christians can be saved......

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