Here are some previous threads barbar
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/63600/1.ashx
Nephalim
by barbar 21 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Leolaia
In the OT the expressions bene 'elohim, bene 'elim, and bene 'el (i.e. "sons of El") refer to lesser members of the divine order who make up the divine assembly or council in heaven, and who make up the "heavenly hosts" that Yahweh Sabaoth commands. The direct source of this usage is Canaanite mythology, where the council of heaven is made up of seventy sons begat by El and Asherah. Of these sons of El, Baal had kingly authority in heaven. In the Ugaritic Baal Cycle, we read: "There is no house for Baal like the gods, not a court like the sons of Asherah, the dwelling of El, the shelter of his sons....Asherah went home to the court of El. She came before the divine council, and spoke of her plan to the gods, her children." According to Canaanite mythology, Baal was king over the sons of El and gained his kingship after defeating Prince Yam (the "Sea," characterized as a gigantic sea monster, known in Israel as Leviathan or Rahab) and killing him. Psalms 82:1 and 89:5-10 are closest to that traditional conception, which refer to the deities as "the council of El" ('dw 'l), "sons of Elyon" (in Canaanite mythology, an epithet of El is Elyon), "gods" ('lhym), "council of holy ones in heaven," and "sons of El" (bn 'l). In some of the psalms, Yahweh is designated as one of the sons of El who (exactly like Baal) rules the heavenly council with kingly authority after defeating the Sea/Rahab. Psalm 82:1 says that he "stands in the assembly of El [Heb. 'dw 'l], among the gods ['lwhm] he dispenses justice." Psalm 89:5-10 even more vividly evokes the Canaanite myth, where Yahweh stands in for Baal:
Yahweh, the council of holy ones in heaven applaud the marvel of your faithfulness. Who in the skies can compare with Yahweh? Which of the sons of El (Heb. bn 'l) can rival him? El (Heb. 'l), dreaded in the council of holy ones, great and terrible to all around him, Yahweh, God of Sabaoth, who is like you? Mighty Yahweh, clothed in your faithfulness! You control the pride of the Sea [Heb. ym], when its waves ride high, you calm them; you split Rahab in two like a carcase and scattered your enemies with your mighty arm." (Psalm 89:5-10)
Some have suggested that "gods" ('elohim ) was the word that originally occurred in Genesis 6:1 (in a sense similar to Psalms 82:1) but the compiler of J or Genesis added the word bene "son of" to remove any hint of polytheism. But in any case, it is clear that "sons of God" refer to the same deities that make up the divine council in heaven. As Judaism tried to expunge all trace of polytheism from the religion, these "gods" were later turned into "angels".
The legend that underlies Genesis 6:1-4, the interrmarriage of human women and the gods and their fantastic offspring (in Heb. gibbor , "mighty ones"), that the early inhabitants of the earth were men of gigantic stature, and that marriages between gods and mortals were common in the heroic age, was well-known in the Near East. It underlay the Greek legends of the Titans and heroes (cf. Homer Illiad 5.302, Herodotus History 1.68, Virgil Aenid 12.900, Pliny HN, 7.73ff), the Phoenician legends of Sanchuniathon on intermarriages between deities and mortals (cf. Eusebius Praep. Ev. 1.10), and the Sumerian Gilgamesh legend. The legends of Sanchuniathon are of special interest because they derive in large part from Northern Canaanite myth (and thus are cognate with the Hebrew legends in Genesis), though influenced as they are also by Greek mythology. Sanchuniathon's account show certain similarities with the story of the Nephilim in Genesis and with the later Jewish legends found in 1 Enoch:
"From the wind Colpias and his [mortal] wife Baau were born Aeon and Protogonus, mortal men, and Aeon discovered the food obtained from trees. Their offspring were called Genos and Genea, and inhabited Phoenicia, and when droughts occurred, they stretched out their hands to heaven towards the sun for he alone is Baal-shamen, the Lord of Heaven. From Genos, son of Aeon and Protogonus, were begotten again mortal children, whose names are Light, and Fire, and Flame. These, says he, discovered fire from rubbing pieces of wood together, and taught the use of it. And they begat sons of surpassing size and stature, whose names were applied to the mountains which they occupied: so that from them were named Mount Cassius, and Libanus, and Antilibanus, and Brathy. From these were begotten Memrumus and Hypsuranius; and they got their names from their mothers, as the women in those days had intercourse with any whom they met. Hypsuranius inhabited Tyre, and contrived huts out of reeds and rushes and papyrus.... Many years afterwards from the race of llypsuranius, Agreus and Halieus the inventors of hunting and fishing were born, from whom were named huntsmen and fishermen. From them were bom two brethren, discoverers of iron, and the method of using it. One of these, Chrysor, also practised oratory, incantations, and divinations, and the other, Hephaestus, invented the hook, and bait, and line, and raft. He was the first of all men to make a voyage and after his death he was worshipped as a god, being called Zeus Meilichios. Some say that his brothers invented walls of brick.... From Misor was born Taautus who invented the first written alphabet; the Egyptians called him Thoyth, the Alexandrians Thoth, and the Greeks Hermes. From Suduc came the Dioscuri, or Cabeiri, or Corybantes, or Samothraces. These were the first to invent a ship. Their descendents discovered herbs, and the healing of venomous bites, and charms. A certain Elyon was born from their line called "the Most High," and a female named Beirut, who lived in the neighborhood of Byblos. ... After this Kronos built a wall round his own dwelling, and founded the first city, Byblos in Phoenicia. Soon after this, he became suspicious of his own brother Atlas, and with the advice of Hermes threw him into a deep pit and buried him. At about this time the descendants of the Dioscuri put together rafts and ships." (Sanchuniathon of Beirutus, Phoenician History, quoted in Eusebius, Praep. Ev. 1.10)
There is obviously a lot of Greek influence, particularly in the identification of Phoenician demigods and deities with Greek gods. But the similarity with Genesis 4-6 is striking. The story relates the intermarriage of gods and human women who "in those days had intercourse" with any of them, begetting "the race of the Ilypsuranius" (= Nephilim) and mortal sons "of surpassing size and stature." The rest of the tale functions as an etiological legend explaining the origin of various human institutions and inventions: the first hunters and fishers, the first to build boats, the first to use herbs, the first to build a city, the first to work with iron, etc. The primeval history of Genesis 4-11 has exactly the same function: relating the first to invent agriculture and animal husbandry, the first to build cities, the first to invent musical instruments and work with metal, the discoverer of wine, etc. Whereas the account in Genesis attributes these discoveries to men (the descendents of Cain and Enosh), Sanchuniathon attributes them to demigods and gods. Later Jewish legends in 1 Enoch preserve the original concept that the gods handed down to men such knowledge. In 1 Enoch, fallen angels corrupt mankind by teaching them such forbidden knowledge:
"And they took wives unto themselves, and everyone chose one woman for himself, and they began to go to them. And they taught them magical medicine, incantations, the cutting of roots, and taught them about plants. And the women became pregnant and gave birth to great giants whose heights were three hundred cubits. These giants consumed the produce of all the people until the people detested feeding them.... And Azazel taught the people the art of making swords and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and he showed to their chosen ones bracelets, decorations, ornamentation, the beautifying of the eyelids, all kinds of procious stones, and all coloring tinctures and alchemy.... Amasras taught incantation and the cutting of roots; and Armaros the resolving of incantations, while Baraqiyal taught astrology and Kokarer'el the knowledge of the signs." (1 Enoch 7:1-8:3)
According to the far older Canaanite myths of Ugarit, in the ancient past there lived a race of semi-divine kings called the rp'm or the Rephaim who were in close contact with the gods, probably descended from the gods (not enough was written about them to be sure), and the gods bequeathed them wisdom and objects manufactured by the gods. The legendary account in Genesis, while explaining the origin of various inventions and institutions, also functions as an etiological legend of the origin of the mythical aboriginal inhabitants of Canaan -- the Nephilim who according to Numbers 13:33 were giants. This theme also occurs in Deuteronomy 1:28, 2:10-21, 9:2, Joshua 15:14, Amos 2:9 , and other OT texts that conceptualize the original inhabitants of the land as giants. A late survival of this belief in giants as the primeval inhabitants of the land appears in the Quran, which refers to the 'Ad and Thamud (cf. Surat al-Araf, 74). Other names of these peoples in the Hextateuch include the Anakim, the Zuzim (or Zamzummim), the Rephaim , and many of these are mentioned in Genesis 14 as the inhabitants of Canaan in Abram's day.
Note that for Genesis 6:1-4 to function as an etiological legend of the origin of the Nephilim, Rephaim, and similar peoples, this tradition originally knew nothing of the Flood of Noah, which would have destroyed the very ancestors of the giants in Joshua's day. The story of the Nephilim thus likely came from an early layer of J (one of the documents incorporated into Genesis) that preceded the inclusion of the Flood story. There are several indications that the Flood story is a later accretion to the primeval history. First of all, note the statement in Genesis 6:4: "The Nephilim were on the earth at that time (and even afterwards) when the sons of God resorted to the daughters of men." The words "and even afterwards" sound a lot like a paranthetical gloss that was tacked on to harmonize the original account from J (which has the Nephilim showing up in the Promised Land in the days of Joshua) with the story of Noah and Flood that was incorporated at a later stage. Second, Baruch 3:26-27 makes reference to the Nephilim in language very reminiscent of Genesis 6 but designates the giants as the ancient inhabitants of Israel who perished only through lack of wisdom (that is, no reference to a Flood per se):
"How great is Israel, the house of God, how wide is his domain, immeasurably wide, infinitely lofty! In it were born the giants, famous to us from antiquity, immensely tall, expert in war; God's choice did not fall on these, he did not reveal the way to knowledge to them; they perished for lack of wisdom, perished in their own folly." (Baruch 3:26-27)
That a remote time before the Flood is not meant can be seen in the fact that Baruch is alluding to Deuteronomy 7:6-7 in referring to God choosing Israel over the "giants": "For you are a people consecrated to Yahweh your God; it is you that Yahweh our God has chosen to be his very own people out of all the peoples on the earth. If Yahweh set his heart on you and chose you, it was not because you outnumbered other peoples, it was because you were the least of all peoples."
Another indication that the Flood story was later added is the following about the Nephilim: "These were the mighty ones (gibbor) of old, the men of renown" (Genesis 6:4). If these men were so renowned and famous, why is nothing said in the Bible about them? Well, maybe one of then is mentioned in Genesis! Note the following in 10:8-9: "Cush became the father of Nimrod who was the first mighty one (gibbor) on earth. He was a mighty (gibbor) hunter in the eyes of Yahweh, hence the saying, "Like Nimrod, a mighty (gibbor) hunter in the eyes of Yahweh." ' So the Nephilim are equated with the "mighty ones of old" and the "men of renown" in chapter 6 and then four chapters later we meet a fellow from the distant past named Nimrod who is called a gibbor no less than three times and who apparently was so famous there was a saying about him. If it weren't for the Flood intervening between ch. 6 and ch. 10, he would be the textbook example of a Nephilim. And further evidence that he was connected with the Nephilim can be found in later Jewish tradition which may preserve older traditions not recorded in the Bible. Because of the proximity of the Nimrod story and the Tower of Babel story in ch. 11 and the statement in 10:10 about Babel being the beginning of his kingdom), Nimrod is generally associated in Jewish tradition with building the Tower. Eusebius cites a tradition by Pseudo-Eupolemus that refers to the builders as "giants": "These were giants and they built the tower well known in history. When the tower was destroyed by God's power, these giants were scattered over the whole earth" (Praep. Ev. 9:17:2-3). Another tradition, creating the name of the primary builder through back-formation from Babel, identified him as a giant and said he "came to dwell in Babylon, there he built a tower and lived in it. It was named Belus after Belus who built it" (9:18:2).
The third piece of evidence that the Flood story was later added to the primeval history relates to Noah himself. Noah was originally an agricultural hero, famous for his discovery of wine. In the older Canaanite tradition, Noah would have been analogous to the demigods in Sanchuanthon's history who discovered hunting, fishing, herbs, writing, etc. The key fact is that his name nwch "Noah" is related to the word nchm "comfort". The name, incidentally, is not Hebrew (otherwise it would have been Naham), but derives possibly from Northern Semitic. Now the obvious foreshadowing to his name occurs in Genesis 3:17, the curse on Adam, referring to the "toil" and "suffering" in agricultural work and the "sweat on your brow" it brings. Then in Genesis 5:29 Lamech, the father of Noah, says when he names him: "Here is the one who will give us, in the midst of our toil and the laboring of our hands, a consolation derived from the ground that Yahweh cursed." So there is an obvious backward reference to Genesis 3:17. But the forward reference cannot be to the Flood (which certainly brought no such comfort), but to Noah's discovery of vine-culture, which brought comfort derived from the ground (Genesis 9:20ff). In this vein, also note Proverbs 31:6-7 which recommends "wine for the heart" and declares, "Let them drink and ... remember their misery no more." The intervening Flood story breaks up the connection between the wine discovery in chapter 9 and the naming of Noah in ch. 5 and thus probably conflates an agricultural hero with the survivor of the Flood.
Genesis 9:20ff also introduces Noah in an entirely new character, as not only the discoverer of the vine but the first victim of its effects. The Noah of vs. 20-27 comes from a different cycle of tradition from the righteous and blameless patriarch who was the hero of the Flood. Note that v. 20 calls him "Noah the husbandman" which implies the existence of traditions about his work in agriculture. In fact, there is an infamous problem in the position of this episode after the Flood story. In the Flood narrative, Noah's sons are married men who take their wives into the ark. Here, on the contrary, they are represented as minors living in the "tent" with their father; and the conduct of the youngest is conceived almost as an exhibition of juvenile immaturity. The most likely explanation, then, is that Genesis 9:20-27 belong to a stratum of the Yahwist writer (J) who knew nothing of the Flood. Note that in v. 24 the offender is the youngest son of Noah, and in v. 25 he is named Canaan, while Shem and Japheth are referred to as his brothers. It is true that in v. 22 the misdeed is attributed to "Ham the father of Canaan" but the words appear to harmonize the account with vs. 18-19 (of the Flood account), and the words leave unresolved the problem between v. 24 and v.25. Not only is there a problem with the position of this story after the Flood account, but it interrupts the connection between v. 19, which describe Ham, Shem, and Japheth as the fathers of humankind, and Genesis 10-11 which lay out how this happened. By all appearances, this story seems to be independent of the Flood narrative.
A fourth line of evidence indicating that Flood narrative was added later to the account relates to Cain. As the eponymous ancestor of the Kenites, his nomadic line obviously did not perish but remained in existence throughout Israelite history (cf. Judges 1:16; Jeremiah 35:1-19). Their nomadism and lack of agriculture is related in Genesis 3:12-16, their specialty in metal-working is mentioned in 4:22, as well as their focus on music (4:21). The Cainite geneology in chapter 4 is evidently from a Kenite source that viewed their ancestor as the founder of human civilization. There was thus no hint of a Flood wiping out human society in the early Yahwist source that posits Cain as an important ancestor of the Kenite portion of the Judean population.
So the Nephilim in Genesis 6 were originally viewed as a race of mighty kings (like Nimrod) who lived in the distant past, who were of gigantic stature (cf. Numbers 13:33), and who were not wiped out by any sort of Flood but who perished at the hands of the invading Israelites. "Nephilim" though is one of many names for the legendary aborigines of the land: others were Rephaim, Zuzim or Zamzummim, and Anakim. The case of the Rephaim is fascinating since they are mentioned in Hebrew poetic texts as the "spirits of the dead" and the "denizens of Sheol" (cf. Job 26:5; Proverbs 9:18, 21:16, where the Rephaim gather around the injust in Sheol). In Isaiah 14:9, they are not just the shades of the dead but the ghosts of dead kings that will greet tyrants. This conception of the Rephaim also derives from Canaanite mythology. In Phoenician inscriptions, the Rephaim are the ghosts of the dead living in the underworld and in the Canaanite Ugarit texts, the Rephaim are a line of ancient mighty, dead kings. The description of the Nephilim as the "mighty of old, heroes of renown" in Genesis 6 comes very close to Canaanite conceptions of the Rephaim.
One of these heroes of old was Danel, a legendary semi-divine king who played a significant role in the Aqhat legend. The memory of the Canaanite hero Danel remained strong in Israel and was alluded to several times in Ezekiel 14:12-20, 28:1-3. In Ezekiel 28:3, Yahweh says to Ittobaal II, king of Tyre: "Though you are a man and not a god, you consider yourself the equal of God. You are wiser now than Danel; there is no sage as wise as you." Here Danel is presented as a renowned wise man and is mentioned in the same breath as someone claiming divinity as "a god". In Canaanite legend, Danel was an ancient mythical king ruling from a splendorous palace and whose wisdom as judge was as legendary as Solomon's; in the Aqhat tale, Danel "judges the case of the widow, and helps the fatherless to his right." Danel's name is "El's judge". Ezekiel 14:16 also mentions Danel, Noah, and Job as three famous men of old who "would not be able to save either son or daughter; they alone would be saved, and the country would become a desert." This is an allusion to the Canaanite Aqhat Cycle, which tells the story of Danel's son, how the goddess Anat killed him, and Danel's extreme attempts to avenge his son's death -- resulting in El taking pity on him and returning his son to him. There is thus some similarity with Job, another faithful man who lost his sons and daughters as well.
As later Jewish tradition reconceptualized the gods that intermarried with human women as fallen angels, the dead Rephaim in Sheol were also reconceptualized as not the spirits of mighty ancient kings in the underworld but the spirits of the angels themselves and of their unholy offspring chained in punishment in the darkness of the underworld. This development occurred in the Hellenistic period (and elaborated most clearly in 1 Enoch and restated in Jude 6) and likely drew from Greek myths of the Titans chained in Tartarus. 2 Peter 2:4 in fact makes the influence from Greek mythology explicit. Because of these developments, the ancient hero Danel became recast as a fallen angel in 1 Enoch 6:7, 69:2 (which also mentions a number of details from the Aqhat legend) or as the father-in-law of Enoch (Jubilees 4:17-21).
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dustyb
but simply, how could an angel have a drive to have sex with women if they themselves don't have a penis or reproductive organs??? i know if i didn't have a wang that i sure as hell wouldn't know what a sex drive even felt like....
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avengers
Uhhh... it's baloney?
but simply, how could an angel have a drive to have sex with women if they themselves don't have a penis or reproductive organs??? i know if i didn't have a wang that i sure as hell wouldn't know what a sex drive even felt like....
They must have had some balonies.
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drawcad_1
I honestly heard a comparison between the nephalim and Neanderthal man.
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peacefulpete
Well, Narkissos and Leolaia, I appreciated your comments. Just to add that the Jews realized that the Flood should have killed all the Nephilim so the Rabbinic tradition was that after the flood a new batch of angels came down and made giants babies. God however was not concerned about these because the angels that made them were wimpy smallish angels. No Joke.
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simplesally
I think that the WT would explain that the angels were not born with a sex drive. Jehovah would not create them with a desire and then not allow them to fulfill it in a proper way................."You are opening your hand and satisfying the desire of EVERY living thing."
So the answer would be that because they looked improperly at the women, they developed an unnatural desire for them and they became perverted.
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peacefulpete
Of course "looking improperly" implies lust. Without testosterone men would have no desire to look improperly at a woman. It's all so silly to literalize these stories.
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Dawn
what if...................
it wasn't about sex at all? What if (now stay with me here...) these angels ...for some reason we are unaware of...wanted to modify the human race - to incorporate a foreign gene or trait that would then spread to the entire world population? Perhaps that is what the purpose behind impregnating the women was.
But the people at that time wouldn't understand genes/dna - they just think woohoo...we're so beautiful the angels can't resist us.
This would also possibly explain the reason God interveined and destroyed those that were already infected/mutated/whatever.
I'm not saying this is the WAY it was...just speculating that there could have been some type of event that occured but entirely different from what the people at that time perceived it to be.
There are a lot of stories in the old testament that I feel are just man's way of trying to explain his universe. But I am not as quick to toss the flood story out because Jesus directly spoke of it as though it was fact. I do believe in Jesus...so that leads me to think that perhaps there was something up with the story - and maybe something on an entirely different level than just angels wanting to get laid.
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peacefulpete
If Jeus as a teacher did in fact use the Noah story to illustrate his message, why does this necessitate it be a historical account? Do not good teachers use illustrations and parables? Fundementalists and JWs have made a false dichotomy. "Either you believe in the Noah story OR you disown Jesus." Millions of modern Xtians prove that to be false logic.