Logical Problem with WT Anointed

by Vanderhoven7 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Vanderhoven7

  The Watchtower September 1, 1951, in a wonderful article entitled “Hated For His Name”(pp518,519) describes the persecution and martyrdom of steadfast Christians in the first 3 centuries AD.

  By the year (A.D.) 64 Christianity was

  prominent throughout much of the Roman

  Empire, including the capital city

  Rome itself. Their individual characteristics,

  form of worship and steadfast refusal

  to compromise thereon had made

  the Christians sure targets of hostility and

  ridicule. That year, the tenth in the

  reign of Emperor Nero, Rome was swept

  by a conflagration so great it is yet the

  object of poetry and legend....

  Diocletian assumed the crown A.D. 284.

  At first he seemed friendly to the Christians,

  but in the year 303 he gave in to

  persuasion and opened the tenth persecution,

  probably the most ferocious of all.

  Suffocation by smoke, forcible drinking

  of melted lead, mass drownings and bumings,

  breaking on the rack of men and

  women alike ran the empire with blood.

  In a single month 17,000 were slain. In

  the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such

  professed Christians died by violence in

  the course of this persecution, in addition

  to another 700,000 who died as a result

  of fatigues encountered in banishment

  Actually it is estimated that 7 million Christians were martyred in the first 3 centuries alone
  

  So What's the problem?
  

  The problem is that the religion of Jehovah Witnesses has set a limit of 144,000 faithful Christians that could have possibly existed in the 19 centuries prior to 1914.

  How does 144,000 = 7,000,000?
• 

  nicolaou

  It's a good point that has been debated many times on the forum. Good to give this another airing for current lurkers and newbies.
• 

  prologos

  As an aspiring member of the 144k "Royal Priesthood" you have to choose your method of execution well, Crucifixion, drinking molten lead will not do. Rev 20:4 prescribes the axe. That pares down the 7 ooo ooo confirmed martyrs some, and definitely eliminates Fred Franz, who died of Brain problems from the eligible candidates.
• 

  Half banana

  I agree with the point you are making Vanderhoven, there are far more candidates for heaven than the literal figure of 144k.

  However I would firstly caution the literal truth in the application of the word "Christian" to followers of Jesus in the year 64 and second, the reliability of church propaganda on the persecution of christians.

  For the first point the "Christ cult" predated Jesus by centuries. There is no historical evidence of followers of Jesus amounting to any numerical force by 64 CE.

  For the second, see: The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom 2013 by Candida Moss, a professor of New Testament and Early Christianity. The Idea of persecution began as did most of Jesus Christianity with the Catholic Church in the third and fourth centuries.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  The explanation in the WT to this numerical problem was as follows:
  

  WT 1952 1/15 p. 62 Questions From Readers

  According to the article “Hated for His Name” in the September 1, 1951, Watchtower, hundreds of thousands of Christians died in the “ten persecutions” starting in Nero’s time, 144,000 dying in Egypt alone during one of the persecutions. How can this be harmonized with the Scriptural limitation of 144,000 placed on the number being in Christ’s body, and which position was the only one open to Christians during those centuries?—J.A., Dominican Republic.

  The article did not class with any finality the individuals that died during these persecutions, but spoke of the results in a general way. Note that a key qualification was made in the case referred to in the question: “In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works.” The victims are identified as “professed Christians”, not Christians in fact. Many of those persons might have been caught in the wave of persecution, but may never have actually preached the truth or followed in Jesus’ footsteps, being only professed Christians. They knew the world they lived in was rotten and they were listening to the message of the Christians and willing to die for it even though not in line for the high calling in Christ Jesus. Many professed Christians today might be willing to die for their faith, but still not be Jesus’ footstep followers and meeting the Scriptural requirements for such.
• 

  freddo

  Good grief - so 7,000,000 plus die horrible deaths in waves of persecution from the "Devil's vicious assaults" and the vainglorious bastards aka Watchtower (sat on their fat derrieres in comfyland New York) say they were only "professed" Christians and not worthy of a heavenly reward.

  (Which obviously only comes if you falsely predict the end several times, own two cadillacs, run a radio station, print millions of crappy books and build a non interactive website while protecting pedophiles in your midst. )
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  How does 144,000 = 7,000,000?

  Answer: If the number 144,000 and the 12,000 from each non-existent tribe are symbolic.

  12 patriarchs x 12 apostles x 1000 = 144,000

  God's perfect church.

  1000 symbolizes "many" or "polus" as in "polus crowd", i.e. the great crowd

  The 144,000 is the number John hears as the tribulation is about to start; then he turns and sees the actual group, but now in a heavenly setting. As Rev.19:1 indicates and as Jesus confirmed, there are many "polus" places in heaven for the many members of His body. Jn.14:2
  

  The hearing, then seeing sequencing is a literary device that John uses frequently in Revelation to display his images. He hears a lion, then turns and sees the Lamb.
  
  
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Freddo:

  "and the vainglorious bastards aka Watchtower (sat on their fat derrieres in comfyland New York)...falsely predict the end several times, own two cadillacs, run a radio station, print millions of crappy books and build a non interactive website while protecting pedophiles in your midst."

  You forgot: "sport Rolex watches"
• 

  Fernando

  Watchtower: two hopes (heaven or earth).

  Bible: one hope (heaven and earth).

  (Ephesians 4:4, 5) . . .One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism. . .
  
  
• 

  berrygerry

  In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution,

  .

  When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

  Hmmmm.