True story: once, on ministry with a brother, householder asked if we believed ONLY 144,000 will go to heaven. He said "No." When the (clearly well-informed) householder looked incredulous at him, he was compelled to qualify his lie by adding "...we believe Jesus is also with them, so technically that makes 144,001." The householder closed the door, evidently realizing that we were complete idiots who weren't going to engage in any sort of rational Bible discussion. I politely offered to handle the next door myself...
144000 The numbers don't add up
by LevelThePlayingField 52 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Fay Dehr
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Vidiot
Even way back when I was a teenager and still in, I privately suspected that the Org's leadership had originally fixed on 144,000 as a literal number because a) they really believed the End was close that there couldn't possibly be enough time for that number to be exceeded, and b) ...never thought JWs might someday number in the millions.
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SonoftheTrinity
So who in Jehovah's organization are the 12,000 of Ephraim, and the 12,000 of Manasseh?. If you're the 144,000, shouldn't you know which tribe you belong to, so that you know which gate of Jerusalem to enter.
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ttdtt
Religion = BS no matter how you slice it.
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waton
So who in Jehovah's organization are the 12,000 of Ephraim, and the 12,000 of Manasseh?. If you're the 144,000, shouldn't you know which tribe you belong to, so that you know which gate of Jerusalem to enter.Well, many here would qualify for the Tribe of Joseph, because they are
1) whistle blowers, like him, of what really goes on in the 10 tribes, aka da org.
2) ostracized, expelled by the 10 tribes, aka da brotherhood because of saying the truth
3) possibly framed by false accusations, by jezebel influence perhaps.
4) given a chance by media, Simon here, and bigger worldly players,-- to set things straight, publicly, in other words: feeding the truth about the truth to those that come (to Egypt, the worldly source) for taat
If you miss to be in Joseph, you still can make Manasseh. (Double reward for whistleblowers) assured.
You do not even have to be sealed out of them, just being in there is good enough.
These are the ones that are not in, but out of that starving* gang.
* do not classify the current programs as mental/spiritual food.
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waton
shouldn't you know which tribe you belong to, --?
That is another point. According to watchtower, the 12 tribes are all the humans with an Earthly Destiny*, the 144 000 are sealed out of them (of course, where else would they come from). but:
The sealing Angels are not telling. who are in the distinctive tribes, nor who gets the seal. (only his/ her hairdresser knows for sure).so,
Since the city with the gates will descended from heaven, it is obviously to let the earthly tribes in. (The city are [already] the 144 000, the bride) so:
* ALL JWs, should know by now what tribe they belong too. evidently the angels do, and they rank lower than the GB The anointed in Paul's day used to knows things that the angels longed to peer into.! Angels are not peers to the anointed?; really?!?! it really does not add up!.
Try those facts on your favoured elder, couched, framed in the right question.
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Vanderhoven7
Since the WTS Great Crowd members only began to be called in 1918, the total number of faithful Christians over 1900 years was under 150,000.
"For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government." (The Watchtower February 15, 1982, p. 30)
"For some 19 centuries after this there was only one calling, the heavenly one. It was an undeserved kindness that God bestowed on a limited number in furtherance of his own wise and loving purpose." (United In Worship Of The Only True God p. 111)
The great multitude,therefore, could not come into existence until the Lord Jesus Christ appeared at the temple and began his judgment, and therefore the great multitude could not appear prior to 1918. The Watchtower, August 1, 1935, p.233
"Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the "great multitude" or "great crowd" was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves. At first there were hundreds, then thousands, later hundreds of thousands, and now there are millions spread around the Globe. Gods infallible Word depicts this group as 'coming out of the great tribulation,' being survivors of it, living right on into God's New Order without ever having to die (Revelation 7:9,10,14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60's or 70's or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The "great crowed" including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the "new earth." (Survival Into a New Earth [1984] p. 185 emphasis mine)
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waton
Since the WTS Great Crowd members only began to be called in 1918, the total number of faithful Christians over 1900 years was under 150,000.
"For 19 centuries there was only the one calling, the heavenly one, with Jehovah being very selective as to who would serve with his Son to make up the Kingdom government." (The Watchtower February 15, 1982, p. 30)
"For some 19 centuries after this there was only one calling, the heavenly one. It was an undeserved kindness that God bestowed on a limited number --If you, Van der Hofen are still in the hof, defend the wt doctrine, then
Can you, as you must, see the problem for wt here? That consigns millions if not billions of people that considered themselves "Christian", "anointed", to be of the un-anointed wt earthly class, the other sheep that already died, that do not come out of, survive the Great Tribulation. so:
Wt has an extended 2 group systems:
1) for the anointed generation a) Those that died since 1914 and b), the now living overlappers:
2) a) for all the anointed that died since Stephen and were resurrected in 1918 and b) the ones that die now to wait for the marriage of the lamb after the GT.
3) a) for the other sheep, those that live after 1918 (millions will never die) and those b) that lived before,
4) a) the generation of other sheep since 1914 that are dead and will be resurrected ( wt hopes) and b) those that will never die. (every JW hopes, but does not really believe yet)
5) a) the OS that survive the GT, and b) those that will be born in the New World.
6) a) those OS that will make it through the final test and those b) that will see Gehenna
7) For those of the Other Sheep that survive Armageddon and a) are/or will be married in the NW, and those that b) are not married, because they are resurrected.
7. Those that are a) princes, princesses and those b) that are just subjects, sheep.
Divide and conquer. con period.
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NU-LYTE
I believe it's literal myself . revelations shows that the four winds of destruction are held back until the last one is martyred by the axe . GOD chooses which ones actually qualify . I personally exclude women , they had gifts of the spirit just not the same tho . Men were commissioned to preach the gospel ,women , according to the apostle paul were only allowed to teach each other women and remain silent in the church , if they had questions about what was said in the church they needed to get with hubby , the WTBTS does seem to twist this around a bit .
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smiddy3
In 1993 their were only about 8,000 that claimed to be of the Anointed with the heavenly hope. Which I believe was a stagnant figure lasting some 30 or so years ? that means in about the year 1960 -1993 that figure of 8000 Anointed remained unchanged .?
So what ? none of the aged Anointed died within those 30 years ? Didn`t the G.B. always say that the numbers would be decreasing as the day drew near ?
What are the facts now ? Instead of the numbers decreasing they are actually increasing to the point where we currently don`t have just 8000 Anointed we actually have over 18000 claiming to be Anointed with the heavenly hope.
If greater than 10,000 are wrongly claiming to be of the Anointed then it doesn`t say much for the Bible education they are getting at Kingdom Halls or by the Elders does it.