Did you know that J.F. Rutherford was part of the Knights of Pythias? There's PROOF for this!

by ILoveTTATT2 78 Replies latest jw friends

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  Jeffro

  Athanasius:

  Despite the evidence, and there is much more, Watchtower apologists will no doubt argue that perhaps there were two Joseph Franklin Rutherfords living in Boonville and the one who belonged to the Knights of Pythias was not their guy.

  Your source might be suitable (a screenshot would be nice given the rapid desire for the claim to be true) for passing mention that Rutherford was a member. If the citation is genuine, it's quite strange indeed that it would not have been provided first instead of more ambiguous references. It does not meet the standards for citing it in Wikipedia - need a source that unambiguously identifies him (specifically) to be a member, not a passing mention of a name. Ideally, this would be source discussing Joseph Rutherford.
  

  It's still not clear why Watchtower apologists should want it to be false, or why some here so badly want it to be true, since it would indicate nothing about any later allegiance to the group. JW literature is full of 'life stories' of people who used to be members of some other group.
  
• 

  Jeffro

  ILoveTTATT2:

  Here's another time where he appeared in the same newspaper.
  
  http://truthhistory.blogspot.mx/2012/12/j-f-rutherfords-first-book.html

  I am aware of that reference. Not sure how it establishes mentions of him often as was suggested.
  
  
• 

  Jeffro

  ILoveTTATT2:

  I think this is good enough. Putting it on Wikipedia.

  I have asked repeatedly on this thread, and it has been ignored each time: WHY would it matter if Rutherford were in the Knights of Pythias. If you're seeking to add it to Wikipedia, there is a higher threshold for inclusion than 'I find this interesting'. It seems that the intended motive is some kind of ad hominem 'exposé' rather than any kind of encyclopedic interest.
  
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  ILoveTTATT2

  Your moving the posts is getting ridiculous.
  
  It's been proven beyond your unreasonable doubt that it was Joseph Franklin Rutherford.
  
  First, you assert baselessly that it's John F. Rutherford. That's disproven.
  Then you want proof that J.F. Rutherford appeared often (and what is your definition of often?) in the Boonville Advertiser.
  
  Then you want reasons as to why his involvement in a fraternal organization that is similar to the Masons should be included in his life. You (or apparently someone who thinks like you) remove a very short sentence in his Wikipedia article, even though it appears in his pre-WT years section.
  
  It might not be notable enough for his article, but it is notable enough for the Knights of Pythias article, in the "see other" section. Certainly a member who became the leader of a religious group is notable enough.
  
  Let's see what other ridiculous thing you say next.
  
  As to others who would like to know more history of the KoP:
  
  http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/knights_of_pythias.htm
  
  

  Justus Henry Rathbone was a man of many talents. He was well educated, a schoolteacher, an accomplished musician and occasional playwright, a Royal Arch Mason and a member of the Improved Order of Red Men. He spent the Civil War years in the United States Hospital Service where he worked as a Citizen Nurse and Hospital Steward. His last assignment was in Washington, D.C. and following the War, he secured the first of several Government jobs. Harry Rathbone didn’t know it but he was about to launch the most incredibly successful fraternal order in human history. The Knights of Pythias exploded into being in 1864 and continued to roar all through the remainder of the Nineteenth Century. In barely thirty years, it had half a million members and had joined the ranks of the Odd Fellows and Masons in popularity. Their Uniformed Rank inspired numerous others. At the turn of the Twentieth Century, It was in to be a Pythian.

  
  
  
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  slimboyfat

  I find it interesting that FDR became a member of the Pythian society while he was president in 1936. And Rutherford detested Roosevelt. I wonder if Rutherford ever made comment on Roosevelt becoming a member. Rutherford was prone to take any action by Roosevelt as proof he was part of some Satanic conpriracy.
• 

  Jeffro

  ILoveTTATT2:

  Your moving the posts is getting ridiculous.

  What is ridiculous is you being excited to the extent of exclaiming "wow" repeatedly when all you had was some initials, and there is no clear reason at all for it being remarkable even if true. The only manner in which I may have 'moved the posts' is to hone the point to greater accuracy, rather than implication of changing definitions arbitrarily.
  

  It's been proven beyond your unreasonable doubt that it was Joseph Franklin Rutherford.

  The only thing representing proof at this point is some text reproduced on this forum that explicitly named Joseph and reasonably refers to the Joseph Rutherford in question. Yet to see a screenshot, but if genuine if would constitute proof. Nothing prior to that constituted proof by any margin. If I hadn't pushed the point, anything resembling actual proof would probably still not be indicated on the forum. You're welcome.
  

  First, you assert baselessly that it's John F. Rutherford. That's disproven.

  I indicated that it could reasonably be John F. Rutherford, being a prominent figure in both the Knights of Pythias and the Woodmen.
  

  Then you want proof that J.F. Rutherford appeared often (and what is your definition of often?) in the Boonville Advertiser.

  I requested evidence of the assertion that he was often mentioned in that publication, but only out of curiosity. It was a fairly trivial matter. It is still not established.
  

  Then you want reasons as to why his involvement in a fraternal organization that is similar to the Masons should be included in his life. You (or apparently someone who thinks like you) remove a very short sentence in his Wikipedia article, even though it appears in his pre-WT years section.

  You should familiarise yourself with Wikipedia's standards for inclusion, in reference to notability and verifiability, particularly in regard to religious/political affiliation.
  

  It might not be notable enough for his article, but it is notable enough for the Knights of Pythias article, in the "see other" section. Certainly a member who became the leader of a religious group is notable enough.

  No, it would require a source specifically discussing Rutherford as a member, not a passing reference that requires original research. If there is not a suitable source indicating notability sufficient for the Rutherford article, it would be trivial, ambiguous, and hence, inappropriate to list him in the 'See also' section of the KoP article.

  Many of the individuals listed as members at the KoP article should also be removed for similar reasons, either with insufficient sources, or with no sources at all. A section has been started at the article's Talk page, and after a reasonable amount of time, inappropriate entries will be removed.
  

  Let's see what other ridiculous thing you say next.

  Ha ha ha ha ha.
  
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  ILoveTTATT2

  I got a non-response response from the KoP:
  
  "Regarding J. F. Rutherford, the records I have regarding past members of Golden Gate #91 (Boonville, MO) only go back to the 1950's - those that go further back are currently in a storage facility in west-central Missouri and I do not have immediate access to them. I will be at that facility in mid-April and will have your request with me - should I find that there was a member named Joseph Franklin Rutherford during that period, I will inform you as to what I found. Sorry I cannot be of more help, thank you."
  
  We will have to wait until April for that then. I am still waiting for the Boonville Advertiser newspaper clippings I ordered.
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  JohnRossStar

  Enjoyed the discussion. Anyone get a scan of that
  The Boonville Advertiser of March 17, 1899, page 1 under the title "KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS BANQUET" article?
  I believe it matters because it was a prominent 'secret society' with religious vows etc. As such, it's another 'daughter of Babylon'. Based on Rutherford's actions later, i'd say his original loyalties resurfaced when met with opportunity.
  Heath & Martin are two who i would bet were also connected - they were both heirs of wealthy families and both shelled out big money for Beth Sarim & Beth Shan. Why?
  I've an idea that Heath, the Coke heir, was told to sweep Bonnie off her feet and get her out of Rutherford's life when he found another young thang. Seemingly after ~1953, Bonnie falls off the earth. Can anyone find anything past that? Heath eventually remarries.
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  dropoffyourkeylee

  I remember this thread, one thing that struck me was learning that Rutherford admired and campaigned for William Jennings Bryan. Tells you something about Rutherfords penchant for long bombastic speeches, setting up the conventions akin to political party conventions with ‘delegates’, use of sandwich signs, loudspeakers, political maneuvering to get to argue before the Supreme Court, etc.