Revelation stuff per request for PetrW

by EasyPrompt 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • PetrW

    Ugh, enough information. So let me ask: where is the UN described in Revelation? And how do we biblically prove it? (In my opinion, it lacks enough evidence to make such a comparison, and I would almost say it borders on condemning others, which we as Christians should avoid... by what judgment do you judge...)

  • PetrW

    Add to that the term 3 1/2 time, or "time, times and half the time". I've expounded on this here somewhere (it was related to my long-standing objections to 1914) because it cannot be determined from the way the term καιρος is used that it must be 3 1/2 time. The term "time, times, and half a time" does correspond in length to the 1260 days and 42 months of Revelation, which would correspond to a length of about 3 1/2 years, BUT, that does not mean that "time" here corresponds to "year" or that "times" are two "times". It may be a different period of time, such as a week. Then it would just be a matter of filling the number of weeks to a total length of about 3 1/2 years, or in other words, "a week and 179 weeks and half a week". But it may be a different time span. The plural καιροι need not yield two καιρος. This is best seen in Luke 21:24 which is the central text in JW chronological speculation for 1914: they automatically assume that καιροι (plural) is 2 times here (so that they can then increase it to 7 times according to the book of Daniel). But it may be 2 or 7 or 70 or 150 or 2300 "times". The plural here does not express any value - or, as one might assume with eyes or ears, for example.

  • EasyPrompt

    Daniel chapter 2 march of world powers culminates with UN as described at 2:41,41 "iron mixed with soft clay" like governments and NGOs.

    Daniel chapter 7 march of world powers ten horns part, other horn before which three fell (US/UK/UN led treaties after WWs humiliated former Roman empire kingdoms of Austro-Hungary, Italy, Germany), then in verse 21 UN makes war on holy ones during great tribulation. Also described at Daniel 7:25 as "He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time."

    Daniel chapter 8 march of world powers small horn UN attack on religious institutions described verses 10-14: "It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. And an army was given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success. And I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one speaking: “How long will the vision of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation continue, to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?” So he said to me: “Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition.”

    (Genesis shows "an evening, a morning, one day"...2,300 evenings and mornings is 1,150 evenings and 1,150 mornings, same is 1,150 days which fits within the 3 1/2 year tribulation.)

    Daniel 8 again says at verse 19 "Here I am causing you to know what will happen in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end." The UN leader is described at 8:23-25 "“And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings will stand up. His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand."

    Daniel chapter 12 is set "in the time of the end" (verse 4.) Verses 6,7 state "How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.”"

    Jesus talked about the appointed times of the nations, which was referring to the attack by the governments of the nations on religious institutions during the great tribulation. "And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)

    The progression of world powers in Daniel coincides with the descriptions of the US/UK breathing life into the UN in Revelation chapter 13. The time period of 3 1/2 years in Daniel also coincide with the 3 1/2 years in Revelation where the Devil comes down and causes woe on the earth.

  • EasyPrompt
    Easy Prompt: "I get my education from Jesus."

    PetrW: "start a discussion thread dealing with Revelation and put your views out there"

    PetrW: "Ugh, enough information."

    Revelation 1:17 "When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet."

    Lol😆. Information overload can be overwhelming! Sorry if it was too much at once, PetrW.🙂🫶I hope you had a good walk with your doggy earlier.🐾☺️💖

  • PetrW

    Re the UN and Daniel: as I wrote, in my opinion, combining the interpretation of Daniel and Revelation is, "high piloting"... so - frankly - I'm not going to dispute what you wrote. I'll just ask: what if Jesus doesn't come until the end of the 23rd century, say in 2289? What will happen to the UN in 2289? 🤔🤔🤔


    doggy cool ✌️😁


    long texts don't matter, rather the quantity témat✌️😎😁

  • EasyPrompt

    Daniel 11:40-44

    “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and horsemen and many ships; and he will enter into the lands and sweep through like a flood. He will also enter into the land of the Decoration, and many lands will be made to stumble. But these are the ones that will escape out of his hand: Eʹdom and Moʹab and the main part of the Amʹmon·ites. And he will keep thrusting out his hand against the lands; and as regards the land of Egypt, she will not escape. And he will rule over the hidden treasures of gold and silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt. And the Libʹy·ans and the E·thi·oʹpi·ans will be at his steps. “But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him."

    Putin is the King of the North. He is alive right now. He is in a rage thrusting out his hand against the lands, going out to annihilate and devote many to destruction. During the time we are in right now is when Daniel chapter 12 will be fulfilled.

    "During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time."

    At some point during the time we are in right now is when Jesus takes the throne ("stands up") in heaven. We can't know the day or hour, because Jesus said nobody would know. (The 1914-thing was a bunch of junk, if it could have been calculated by Daniel 4 then Jesus would have known it back when he was on the earth.) But the length of time of the great tribulation is known, it was repeated numerous times in the Bible so that we wouldn't lose heart, because it's going to be a very, very difficult time.

  • EasyPrompt

    Comments on understanding "666"...

    In ancient times, God said to keep the Law on your head and your hand at Deuteronomy 6:4-9...

    "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force. And these words that I am commanding you today must prove to be on your heart; and you must inculcate them in your son and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up. And you must tie them as a sign upon your hand, and they must serve as a frontlet band between your eyes; and you must write them upon the doorposts of your house and on your gates."

    It was figurative. Basically, keep thinking about God's ways and let it influence all you do.

    Six years work the land, the seventh is a sabbath rest.

    Six days of work, the seventh day is a sabbath rest.

    Six = Work

    Seven = Rest

    Revelation 14:11, the wild beast worshippers have "no rest".

    Revelation 14:13, those in union with the Lord have "rest".

    The visions of Revelation chapters 13 and 14 are parallel accounts. They are the same thing from a slightly different angle.

    Once Jesus takes the throne in heaven, the Devil is cast down and permitted to rile up the UN to destroy all religious institutions. However, during that time true worshippers will keep relying on Jesus and allow God's ways to influence their decisions and actions. The UN will claim to be able to "work" without God to solve the earth's problems, but it won't work. True worshippers of God will recognize that no amount of "work" by humans alone can fix everything. They will "rest" in that they know only God can fix everything, and they will have confidence that at the end of the 3 1/2 year tribulation, Jesus will come just as he promised.

    "666" = Work, work, work. No rest. No reliance on God. No real hope.

    The context of Revelation 14:9,12 is after the great tribulation begins and the religious institutions have been destroyed...

    "If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God...Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus."

    It will be imperative for true worshippers of God to maintain their hope and faith despite the crazy things going on during the great tribulation.

    Our relationships with Jehovah and Jesus will be our place of rest. "Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for yourselves." (Matthew 11:28,29) "Jehovah God is my Shepherd...He refreshes me." (Psalm 23)

    Many people who don't know anything about God or Jesus will need refreshment during the great tribulation. We will have the opportunity to refresh them by sharing with them the Only Source of hope and faith and life and peace and rest - Jehovah God through His Son Christ Jesus.

  • PetrW

    Interesting explanation of 666. I think it is possible to include your interpretation in the group of interpretations of 666 that are generally called "the symbolic meaning of the number 6". There are several variations on the theme of the number 6, with one of the earliest attested in Irenaeus of Lyons, who considered the 600 years of Noah, connecting it to the 60x6 cubits of the statue in Daniel. The basis of symbolic interpretations of 666 is always the number 6, and the more or less negative significance of the number 6 is emphasized...

    And of course, Irenaeus also popularized gematria. Little is known anymore, and therefore none of the reputable commentators cite other passages from Irenaeus where he writes about the gematria speculations of the Gnostics on the name of Jesus and his numerical 888 as being nonsense...

    I have about 20 or 30 commentaries on Revelation (in book or electronic form - see or the Zlib app 😎😎😎) and other literature on and about Revelation...

    What I mean to say: from this position it is easy to come up with criticisms of your solution - others have done it for me. The greatest weakness of symbolic interpretations of the number 666 is that, first, it does not quite meet the requirement for the imperative form of the verb "to count" and, most importantly, in Rev 15:2 when it speaks of those who conquered the beast and its image, that the number 666 mentioned in this text must also be non-literal in nature, it must be something material. It is difficult to "beat" an arithmetic equation... (anything goes, of course, but you can probably guess that Rev 15:2 is not exactly on this topic...). JW as far as I know oscillate around the symbolic meaning of 666 and not knowing anything 😁

    I have my explanation, I am writing it - but it has to be published in a journal first. All I can say is that the solution to 666 can be found in the Bible (no, it is not again the symbolic meaning of 666 talents of gold or number of sons...) and there is a wide base of literary and non-literary extra-biblical monuments from antiquity to early Byzantium to support this explanation (no, it is not gematria, in any language - see above by Irenaeus of Lyons).

    But let's try another topic ✌️😎

    The identity of Babylon the Great? What do you make of it???????????😎

  • EasyPrompt

    Revelation 13:18 says: "This is where it calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a man’s number, and its number is 666."

    I didn't give you "my interpretation", PetrW. I already told you I follow Christ. He is the source of wisdom. Revelation shows that it is only the Lamb who is qualified to unlock the seals and explain what is contained in them. Jesus is the one who has permission from God to pour out holy spirit and understanding in response to our requests. "Keep on asking, and you will receive" and "Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it," he said. Jesus is the Source of true Wisdom, not some old first century philosophers or Gnostics. But if you prefer the stuff old philosophers make up rather than what is revealed through the Word of God, that's between you and him.

    You request to talk about Babylon the Great? As you wish...

    Zechariah 5:5-11

    "Then the angel who was speaking with me came forward and said to me: “Look up, please, and see what is going out.”

    "So I asked: “What is it?”

    "He replied: “This is the eʹphah container that is going out.” He continued: “This is their appearance in all the earth.”

    "And I saw that the round lid of lead was lifted up, and there was a woman sitting inside the container.

    "So he said: “This is Wickedness.” Then he threw her back into the eʹphah container, after which he thrust the lead weight over its mouth.

    "Then I looked up and saw two women coming forward, and they were soaring in the wind. They had wings like the wings of a stork. And they lifted up the container between the earth and heaven.

    "So I asked the angel who was speaking with me: “Where are they taking the eʹphah container?”

    "He replied: “To the land of Shiʹnar to build her a house; and when it is prepared, she will be deposited there in her proper place.”"

    Shinar is Babylon. Babylonish practices don't belong among people who claim to represent God.

    The very next chapter of Zechariah has four chariots (similar to the four horsemen in Revelation again) and has to do with returning from Babylon to restore and refine pure worship of God.

    Chapter 51 of Jeremiah talks about Jehovah taking down Babylon back in the day. Verse 14 says:

    "Jehovah of armies has sworn by himself,

    ‘I will fill you with men, as numerous as locusts,

    And they will shout in triumph over you."

    And verses 27-29...

    "Lift up a signal in the land.

    Blow a horn among the nations.

    Appoint the nations against her.

    Summon against her the kingdoms of Arʹa·rat, Minʹni, and Ashʹke·naz.

    Commission against her a recruiting officer.

    Make the horses come up like bristling locusts.

    Appoint against her the nations,

    The kings of Meʹdi·a, its governors and all its deputy rulers

    And all the lands they rule over.

    And the earth will quake and tremble,

    For the thoughts of Jehovah against Babylon will be carried out

    To make the land of Babylon an object of horror, without an inhabitant."

    (Notice the "locust" theme? And the "earthquake" theme?)

    The plagues of Revelation are on Babylon the Great. The religious institutions have wickedly misrepresented God and reproached His Holy Name and hurt His People. He is allowing the nations to devour the religious institutions, represented by Babylon the Great.

    "He said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. And the ten horns that you saw and the wild beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire. For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished. And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth." (Revelation 17:15-18)

    "On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth.”" (Revelation 17:5)

    "...the great prostitute who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality, and earth’s inhabitants were made drunk with the wine of her sexual immorality..." (Revelation 17:1,2)

    The religious institutions claim to be loyal to God, but they are unfaithful. They are not repentant for misrepresenting Him. They do not say "we're sorry for hurting people", or if they do say "we're sorry" they don't follow through with actions that match their words unless it's only for show and only say "we're sorry" for some personal advantage rather than true repentance. They continue in their spiritual "fornication" - claiming to represent God while teaching untruths about Him. Meanwhile, they are "in bed" with the government leaders in different ways, willing to compromise their integrity at times in hopes of getting some kind of kick-backs, tax-free benefits, protection, prominence, etc.

    God is sick of their nastiness. He's going to let the nations completely strip all those religious institutions of their wealth. They will no longer have their religious "ceremonies"..."No light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; for your merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, and by your spiritistic practices all the nations were misled." (Revelation 18:23)

    Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization have brought intense reproach on Jehovah's Name. The Watch Tower will be torn down first when religious institutions are attacked, because even though smaller than many other denominations, she has claimed to have been "the closest to God" by name. The WTBT$ is a like skank harlot, a conniving whore, a two-faced murderous prostitute, like Jezebel. "Let her drop!"

    "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind."

    Individual Christians, wherever they may be found, need to discard Babylonish practices, such as lording it over the flock, hiding abuse, teaching numerology-based doctrines, dividing the congregation through anti-christ Jezebel-like teachings such as disfellowshipping, and living in communes supported by tithes which is in opposition to the teachings of the Christ. The Pharisaical teachings of the religious institutions, including Jehovah's Witnesses, have stumbled many of Christ's little sheep.

    "But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith, it would be better for him if a millstone that is turned by a donkey were put around his neck and he were pitched into the sea." (Mark 9:42)

    Pretty soon the Watchtower and other religious institutions, all part of Babylon the Great, will not be making money any more.

    "And every ship captain and every seafaring person and sailors and all those who make a living by the sea stood at a distance and cried out as they looked at the smoke from her burning and said: ‘What city is like the great city?’ They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and mourning, and said: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, in which all those who had ships at sea became rich from her wealth, because in one hour she has been devastated!’

    “Be glad over her, O heaven, also you holy ones and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced his judgment on her in your behalf!” And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.""

    "Amen! Come Lord Jesus!"

  • PetrW

    If I were to evaluate your opinion, I think that the concept of the Great Babylon being represented by churches or even religions is, shall we say, a move in the right direction. It is certainly a better interpretation than saying that only the Catholic Church or the institution of the papacy within the Catholic Church represents Babylon the Great. But despite these positives, the Great Babel is still just a theological "stick" in the hand with which to beat "competitors." It is still a term used in inter-religious warfare.

    Biblically, I think the biggest weakness of this concept is that Rev 18:24b claims that "the blood of...ALL the slain of the earth was found in him". I guess blaming all the murders on religion or churches is impossible? Or, how do you explain this???

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