Even if God exists…….

snare&racket

I’m an atheist.

Let’s assume I am wrong, I am willing to be.

Let’s give people a God, let’s even make him the God of the bible…..

Does he deserve to be worshipped and obeyed?

If so why?

If so, why does his abhorrent actions not morally make you question allegiance to him?

Does his authority alone allow him to murder and drown and order war, to throw people into a lake of fire?

If a king proclaimed authority or even earned it democratically, does that power grant loyalty despite abhorrent acts?

Read the bible, if any king or leader performed the acts of the God of the bible, he would be considered the MOST evil leader that had ever existed. Forget Hitler, God drowned a planet, ordered the slicing open of pregnant bellies and plans infinite destruction for those than don’t do as he asks…..

I just don’t get it anymore, as an informed adult, free to think….how do people reason around this obvious moral obstacle?

Vidqun

Rules for the Creator and for us are different. He created everything and everything belongs to him. We are organisms in a petri dish. The scientist use, discard or experiment to his heart's content. Then he gets rid of it. Similar to pest control, one gets rid of an invasion of cockroaches without moral qualms. And out rules and laws differ vastly from rules and laws of a thousand years ago. Today civilization allows for a Woke and Cancel culture. We want God to be ethical and moral according to our standards. Remember, we are in a petri dish.

snare&racket

Who says he has different rules and why?

Vidqun

As a person we have our own personal preferences. You, as a doctor, make life or death decisions every day. In war or a pandemic, you'll have to apply triage rules. But in the end one cannot equate God with anyone on earth, it's like comparing apples to pears. We are limited in what we create. We have a certain measure of control in what we create. If I understand it correctly, there is no limitations placed on God. On the other hand, as Creator he can place rules and limitations on us. It is his right.

truth_b_known

Let’s give people a God, let’s even make him the God of the bible…..

You ask the question, "Even if God exists why worship him?" However, you quickly turn it into "the God of the bible."

When it comes to that question, we have to be more specific. There are many gods listed in the Bible and we find out about more as time goes on. Is it El, YHWY, the Lord, or even Jesus (if you grant him divinity).

I have come across some interesting information over the past couple of years where it shows the Israelites had several gods during the course of their history. There are even those who suggest that in the Gospels Jesus rebukes the religious leaders for worshipping YHWY when their true god is this "Lord".

I get your argument about why any would ever want to willingly worship the god of the Old Testament. Keep in mind, part of that is because morality is dynamic and not static. Religious belief is part of culture. Culture is a learned experience. Over the centuries it begins to look like "that's the way it has always been." This is not true.

So, I think another way to look at it is "How could anyone in our current culture and in this modern day and age choose to worship the brutal god of the old testament?" I think the reason is simpler than we think - we were raised to believe it.

True, some people choose to accept this blood-thirsty tyrant as their god later in life. I have no idea why other than the shared experience. People find something to belong to and want to share in the emotional experience the others in the group have.

I get wanting to follow the tenets of Jesus. However, Christianity tends to say "You have to accept the YHWY if you want the Jesus." That is hard to come to terms with.

I also see Vidqun's point. Who am I with my first world, suburbanite morals to tell God what is right and wrong?

Rafe

The god of the bible resume is bit tainted such as Noah's flood

snare&racket

"You shall acknowledge no God but me. . . . You are destroyed, Israel. . . . The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:4, 9, 16 New International Version)

"Hear and give ear; do not be haughty, for the Lord has spoken. . . . And if you say in your heart, 'Why have these things come upon me?' it is for the greatness of your iniquity that your skirts are lifted up, and you are violated . . . because you have forgotten me and trusted in lies. I myself will lift up your skirts over your face, and your shame will be seen." (Jeremiah 13:15–26 NRSV)

"And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:27–29 King James Version)

"See, the day of the Lord is coming — a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger. . . . I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty. . . . Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated." (Isaiah 13:9–16 NIV)

PaddyTheBaddy

Does he deserve to be worshipped and obeyed?
If so why?
If so, why does his abhorrent actions not morally make you question allegiance to him?
Does his authority alone allow him to murder and drown and order war, to throw people into a lake of fire?

If God exist and morality is grounded in him, then the sense of morality I possess comes from him. My ability to judge his actions as abhorrent stem from this God given gauge. So either there is something wrong with my sense of justice or there is more to the account than I am aware off.

If God doesn't exist, then all we are are lumps of well organized clay telling other lumps of clay how they ought to behave. In this version of reality our sense of right and wrong is grounded in the clay. The concept of right and wrong held by the mightiest lumps of clay tends be the right one. In a materialists world, might is right.

The only hope we have of being able to truely state that abhorrent actions are objectively wrong, is if there is a source of morality beyond the mere attributes of matter.

So although we don't understand all of his actions and as a consequence feel uninclined to worship him, he does provide hope of ultimate justice being accessible to all. This can only be achomplished in an afterlife. It may even make him more likable in the end.

Someone once said "Everything will be ok in the end, and if it's not ok, it's not the end."

pistolpete

snare&racket

The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:4, 9, 16 New International Version)

Yea that doesn't sound like God

It sounds more like that next sequel Avengers vs Thanos Marvel movie

With the exception that the villian - Thanos didn't go that far in inflicting Pain.

He just dissolved half the Universe PAINLESSLY.

Those ancient bible writers sure had a very bloodthirsty imagination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGS9L3zxR7A

redvip2000

Rules for the Creator and for us are different. He created everything and everything belongs to him. We are organisms in a petri dish. The scientist use, discard or experiment to his heart's content. Then he gets rid of it.

yeah but scientists don't use thinking human beings in his experiments. That would be considered criminal.

So if Jellohoba is using humans for an experiment, then he is a monster with no ethical concerns.

Just accept the fact that there is no god. Or if there is, he doesn't give a shit at all.

Even if God exists…….

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