Do We Get A Clean Slate When We Die? (Watchtower View Examined)

by Sea Breeze 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    The Watchtower teaches that the opportunity to be born again and enjoy complete Justification with God ended in 1935, having been limited to only 144K since Pentecost. So, it is very surprising that the Watchtower embraces the death that is described in Romans Chapter 6, since this is the very death that is required to be born again…… which is denied to Watchtower members!

    Romans Chapter 6, verse 7 is about saying goodbye to the old personality, the “old man” in the King James Version. The old personality must die, he cannot be fixed. The old personality is characterized by dominance of the flesh. However, when a believer is born again he gets a new spirit, which cannot sin. (See 1 John 3: 9)

    It is with this new spirit that we worship God in spirit and truth. The death spoken of in vs. 7 is described in detail throughout the chapter as a death of the spirit, not the body; in vs. 4, “buried with him by baptism”, vs. 2 says that we are “dead to sin”; vs. 6 says we are “crucified with Christ”; vs. 11 says we are to recon ourselves “dead unto sin”, vs. 18 says that this makes us “free from sin” and are now servants of righteousness.

    In other words, because a Christian has given up the rights to himself and given them to Christ he has died to his own authority; a new spirit is now operating in the born again believer. Christ is now in control of the individual. (See Gal. 2:20) We are dead to sin but made alive through Christ. (See Col. 3:3 & Romans 8:10)

    But the Watchtower isolates Romans 6: 7 which says, “he that has died has been freed (“acquitted” in NWT) from sin” and created a doctrine of self-atonement that states that when a person dies, they automatically get a clean slate because by dying they have paid their own sin debt to God and so they are self-justified to be resurrected and not condemned.

    The following 17 scriptures contradict the Watchtower’s doctrine of self-atonement. These must all be spiritualized away or ignored in order to keep this very troubling and out-of-context interpretation:

    1. John 3: 18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - If a person gets a new slate when they die and they can pay for their own sins by dying, then nobody is really condemned. A literal interpretation of this scripture says otherwise.

    2. John 5: 29 - And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. - If a person gets a new slate when they die and they can pay for their own sins by dying, then why will there be a resurrection of damnation? A literal interpretation of this scripture says otherwise.

    3. Rev. 20: 5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. - The WT says this scripture is “symbolic” and not literal. But, they believe the next verses 6-9, are literal (the Final Rebellion). But, the ones after that, verses 10 & 11 are symbolic again. (They wave away the verses that teach that there will be a literal judgement after you die as does Hebrews 9: 27)

    4. Rev. 20: 12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. - If a person gets a new slate when they die and they can pay for their own sins by dying, then why resurrect the dead to judge them by their works? (This must be spiritualized – ignored) - The reality is that Christians are judged at Calvary Hill along with Christ as deserving of death. Others who reject the New Covenant Blood Covering and the work that Jesus did must now be judged by their own works, having rejected the work of Christ, his grace and New Covenant.

    5. Matt. 12: 41 - The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. - If a person gets a new slate when they die and they can pay for their own sins by dying, then why will the men of Nineveh be resurrected to testify that they were able to repent having far less miraculous signs to go on than the men in Jesus’ day had? This sounds like a real trial with real witnesses. All this must be spiritualized by the WT to fit their narrative.

    6. Matt: 10: 15 - Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city. - If a person gets a new slate when they die and they can pay for their own sins by dying why will the people in Jesus’ day receive a heavier judgement than those from Sodom & Gomorrah?

    7. Matt. 11: - 21 – 24 - Then began he to upbraid [chastise] the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. - Why will it be more tolerable for the residents of Tyre, Sidon, Sodom & Gomorrah at judgment day, than for the cities of Chorazin, Bethsaida, & Capernaum if a person can pay for their own sins by dying & get a new slate after they die?

    8. Is. 2: 12 - For the Lord of hosts will have a day of reckoning, Against everyone who is proud and lofty. And against everyone who is lifted up, That he may be abased. - Why has the Lord reserved a day to condemn the proud and lofty if a person can pay for their own sins by dying & can get a new slate after they die?

    9. Hebrews 9: 27 – it is appointed unto man once to die, and then judgement - Why will there be a personal judgement after you die if you already have a new slate and paid for your sins when you died?

    10. Rev. 11: 18 - thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged - Again, why will there be a personal judgement after you die if you already have a new slate and paid for your sins when you died?

    11. Romans 3: 28 - For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. - Being Justified means there is no debt. Why is there a need to eliminate our sin debt by faith if we get a clean slate (justified) simply by dying? If we have already paid our debt by dying, why does anyone need to be justified. It makes the works vs. faith argument totally irrelevant. Why not just die and be done with it? -

    12. Romans 5: 1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ - Why do we achieve peace with God through faith if it is actually by our own death?

    13. Habakkuk 2: 4 - Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith. - Why do we live again by faith if it is simply by dying that we will live again?

    14. Gen. 15: 6 - And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. - Why did Abraham need to get declared righteous by believing God if all he had to do is die and get resurrected during the Millennial Reign?

    15. Gal. 2: 16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ… , for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Why worry about faith or works if a person justifies himself by dying and wakes up during the Millennium Reign with no sin debt? The truth is that Justification is very important and determines where you will spend eternity. And, it is achieved only one way, by faith; and not by works or by simply dying.

    16. Matt. 12: 36 - But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. - Why will careless things that people say be brought up against them on Judgment Day if a person gets a clean slate after they die?

    17. 2 Peter 2: 9 - The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: - Why is the Lord reserving unjustified mankind for judgement and punishment if they are given a clean slate when they die?

  • Drearyweather
    Drearyweather
    The Watchtower teaches that the opportunity to be born again and enjoy complete Justification with God ended in 1935

    This is old light

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    DW, although that is not the point of my post, I'm curious, what is the current proposal on the 144K ?

  • EverApostate
    EverApostate
    Do We Get A Clean Slate When We Die

    Thats the end of everything for us. Gone for Eternity.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Related image | Thats all folks, Funny, Gravestone

    Reminds me of this epitaph for Mel Blanc.

    However, lots of evidence in NDEs and Terminal Lucidity strongly suggest otherwise.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    Evangelicals have long known that JW's do not put their trust in the blood of Christ as represented in the New Covenant "for the forgiveness of sins". This is why they cannot be considered Christian.
    Rather, JW's often quote this scripture in Romans 6: 7 (out of context) as one of the objects of their faith for salvation.
    I listed 17 scriptures that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that, biblically there will be a literal judgement AFTER YOU DIE. All these warnings about Judgment would be unnecessary if all we had to do is physically die to avoid judgement.
    In contrast, Christians, agree to undergo a spiritual death NOW as described in Romans Ch. 6 in multiple places. It is not a literal death that gives a clean slate. A Christian must die to self and follow ONLY Jesus, and not follow himself or any other voice that would contradict Jesus or who would detract from the sufficiency of God. (2 Cor. 3: 5)
    Christians give up on their own works to achieve a righteous standing with God and busy themselves with "the ministry of reconciliation" and the "good news of Jesus Christ" (Mark 1:1) as well as the "good news of our salvation" (Eph. 1:13)
    The "good news of the kingdom" will be preached mainly during the great tribulation. Christians speak of it now quite often, but their main message (as was the apostles) is to be reconciled to God through the blood covenant of Christ.
    For many reasons, it would be foolish to imagine our own personal physical death as an atonement for sin. It is a spiritual death as plainly taught by the chapter of Romans 6: 7.
    Otherwise, you would need to literally crucify yourself in order to comply with the direction in Gal. 2: 20 which says:
    "I am crucified with Christ"
    Please do not literally do that. But, God does ask us to do that spiritually, in regards to all other authority so you don't have to be condemned.
    Romans 8: 1 - There is therefore NOW no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus
  • Longlivetherenegades
  • waton
    waton
    DW, although that is not the point of my post, I'm curious, what is the current proposal on the 144K ?

    SB: Peter, Paul & Mary were resurrected in 1918 , once heaven was cleansed.

    The current "anointed" partakers, the generation of 1914 will rise to their reward in heaven at the start of the coming Great Tribulation. leaving the "sheep and goats" behind. These sealed "anointed" have to be in heaven to participate as immortal warriors in the killing of Armageddon, which is the end of this system, when "all these things have occurred".

    Unbelievably, wt here contradicts "Jesus" who emphatically stated, that this generation (of wt's anointed of 1914) will n-o-t pass away until all these things have occurred,

    the other wt gem is, that the remnant of the 144 000 is the generation that generously overlaps in at least 2 groups. as David Splane's remarks show:

    2 centenarians overlapping by 20 years: 2x100 = 200 - 40 = 160 years +1914 = 2074

    one year to 1975 + 100. not just a proposal, a prophecy by wtbts. inc.

  • Diogenesister
    Diogenesister

    Good points Sea Breeze


    I had discussion elsewhere with someone I think holds on to some doctrinal JW beliefs. It was around suicide and Watchtower (he left due to lack of love and his disapproval of shunning, which is absolutely understandable).

    I (and some other ex JWs) said that many JWs , especially the DF, think that suicide prior to Armageddon is the safest option to ensure they gain the paradise. That getting into paradise may be time-sensitive, may be contingent on when you die. In other words those that die even 5 minutes before Armageddon will gain paradise, whereas being alive during Armageddon you are at least taking a chance that you will be killed if god deems you not to be a good enough witness.

    This chap said that Christendom’s doctrine is worse in that regard, in fact hypocritical, since if they’re going to heaven surely it makes more sense to kill yourself now and go straight there?*

    I think your points drive our idea home far better. That for witnesses, death = justification since by dying you’re all square with your sin debt. In fact that is the reason that drives many despairing witnesses to feel safer in death.

    *since the Bible doesn’t actually pass judgement on suicide.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    especially the DF, think that suicide prior to Armageddon is the safest option to ensure they gain the paradise.

    Undoubtedly, that is the most troubling part of the Wt misapplication of Romans 6: 7.

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