144,000 & The Trinity

by Libby 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Libby

    Now that I'm looking beyond what the WT teaches I'm struggling to find information on three topics. The 144,000, The Trinity and Prayer.

    If anyone has 5 minutes could they explain:

    1. What do other religions think the 144,000 are or is?

    2. I can find lots of information as to scriptures that show how God and Jesus can be the same. But if Jesus is God, how did he send himself to earth ? And how did he pray to God when on earth ?

    3. If God and Jesus are the same do other religions still ask their prayer in Jesus's name or do they just say Amen ?

    sorry if these questions seem basic. I never realised before that other religions worship Jesus.

  • Londo111

    1. What do other religions think the 144,000 are or is?

    Most do not focus on this at all. The book of Revelation is heavily symbolic and hard to interpret. Most denominations don’t derive theology from the symbolic parts of the Bible and then reinterpret the non-symbolic parts, rather the other way around.

    Watchtower theology picks at chooses what parts of the 144000 to take literal and what parts are symbolic. For instance, twelve tribes of Israel? Symbolic. 12000 each? Symbolic. So a symbolic number (12) multiplied by another symbolic number (12000) ends up being a literal number (144000)? The 144000 are virgins, but Watchtower says that is symbolic? And where does it say only they go to heaven?

    If you do a little digging into the “Great Crowd”…that they are shown performing Sacred Service day and night in the Temple (the Holy Place, not some outer courtyard), then it is obvious they perform priestly duties and are part of the “kingdom of priest and a holy nation”.

    Also if you do a little digging into the “Other Sheep”, which goes back to John, not Revelation, it is obvious Jesus was referring to Gentiles.

    In the end, who the symbolic 144000 are aren’t a big deal. Much of Revelation seems to have been about events that occurred in the first century. And it was a controversial book that almost was excluded from the Bible canon. But it was finally accepted into the canon by Trinitarians in the 3rd century.

    2. I can find lots of information as to scriptures that show how God and Jesus can be the same. But if Jesus is God, how did he send himself to earth ? And how did he pray to God when on earth ?

    The Trinitarian theology is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, but share the same divine essence. Three Persons in one God, all equally divine, but having different roles and relationships to each other. Thus in this view, Jesus doesn’t send himself to earth, the Father does. Jesus (one person) prayed to the Father (another person).

    Of course, in mainstream denominations, people don’t really sweat this stuff and it is no big deal. People end up having personal views on these matters and don’t spend much time thinking about it.

    3. If God and Jesus are the same do other religions still ask their prayer in Jesus's name or do they just say Amen ?

    Yes, many denominations pray in Jesus name. Again, they pray to the Father (one person), in Jesus name (another person). Or as directed in John 14:14, they can pray to Jesus (“ask me anything in my name and I will do it”).

  • Vanderhoven7
  • Jerryh

    Hi Libby, I was never a Witness. I think I know what you mean by "other religions" I became a follower of Jesus

    in the Methodist church, married my high school sweetheart and joined the Baptist church with her, so I am pretty qualified to be "other". I think of myself as a follower of Jesus, not much of one, but I am one.

    1. What do other religions think the 144,000 are or is? Jews

    (John 10:16) other sheep I have not of this fold SO (Matt 10:6) go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel(Matt 15:24) I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. SO

    (Rom 1:16) I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first,

    (Rom 2:9) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first,

    (Rom 2:10) glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first

    NOW (John 4:21) the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

    2. I can find lots of information as to scriptures that show how God and Jesus can be the same. But if Jesus is God, how did he send himself to earth ? And how did he pray to God when on earth ?

    The trinity doctrine is not meant to be a definition of God. This statement is the gist of it.

    "do not confuse the persons, do not divide the substance" The father and son are not the same person.

    The limitation of human thought and vocabulary is, what exactly is a "person"? Probably better is just

    use the adjective and say they are personal. As for the English word "substance" it usually refers to physical

    substance and God is not physical so commenters often use "essence" or "nature". Jesus had human nature

    and divine nature. One person with two natures. Go on youtube and see experiments with light to see that

    this is possible. Light has two natures, particle and wave. Father and Son have the same nature.

    Jesus forgave sin, controlled the wind, and received worship because it was his nature. We don't care that

    Thomas called him God (see Acts 14:11 and Thomas was just a regular guy) what we care is Jesus let

    him say those words without rebuke but with a blessing instead (John 20:29).

    The Holy Spirit is a person? Again better to stay with the adjective, personal.

    the holy spirit said: “Set aside for me Barʹna·bas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

    3. If God and Jesus are the same do other religions still ask their prayer in Jesus's name or do they just say Amen ?

    Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    1. The LDS believe they will be high priests, called out of the world and selected from the tribes of Israel. Joseph Smith said: We are to understand that those [144,000] who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn” (D&C 77:11).

    2. Regarding the Trinity, yes, it is a problem for those who believe in the oneness of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It's both amusing and disturbing to hear some evangelicals pray a long prayer, then wrap it up by saying, "...in your name we pray. Amen." They erroneously pray to Jesus instead of the Father, which is how Jesus taught us to pray, and they don't see their error. When Jesus prayed to the Father concerning the Twelve, he said, "...that THEY may be ONE, even as WE are ONE." Jesus and the Father are ONE, even as Peter and Thomas were ONE. Not physically, but in purpose.

    3. That's why, in my view, people should pray to the Father in the name of the Son.

  • Awakenednow

    Pythagoreans understood numbers as a creative language that also translates to music/vibration. The trinity is best understood by studying the esoteric meaning of 1,2,3 and how the churches tried to interpret that understanding for thousands of years is seen in the various trinity doctrines both pagan and Christian. The alchemists who built ancient cathedrals encoded it all in the artistic designs. It's fascinating! (Fulcanelli) The number 144 (1000) is also interestingly part of the sacred number system. Maybe you've heard of Platonic solids? Check out these cool videos on Sonicgeometry.com for some easy to learn basics. http://www.sonicgeometry.com/

    The numbers and certain biblical passages in the Bible were written for those with special initiate knowledge and can be traced to ancient astrology and make total sense in that context . For example "the kingdom of the heavens is like the mustard seed ", Bahir (ancient Jewish book) . The Bible and book of Revelation is filled with astrological references, I.e. Draco, the original serpent... great books to read are "serpent in the sky" by john Anthony west and "the mysteries of the great cross of mendaye" by jay weidner .

    once I read these books, the scriptures meant even more to me. Lots more fun to read. Knowledge of Hebrew language alphabet helps too. Trying to understand the Bible from a literal perspective today; is akin to playing the game telephone with a thousand players. Even Thomas Jefferson stuck to the "words in red", the Jefferson Bible only has jesus' quotes in it.

    For christian lessons, I enjoy Joseph Prince Ministry on Tv. I've learned more about Grace, Jesus Christ, ancient Israel and Hebrew words written in the Bible, in a few episodes, then years reading Watchtowers. I don't agree to everything he teaches, but he's easy to learn from, easy on the eyes, and fun. I always learn something good there!

    jesus admonishes to keep seeking; I think we all are on very personal journeys and I love hearing everyone here on this forum to see where we all explore after coming out from such a similar religious background . These are just my current thoughts and not intended to preach or distract others. But after asking similar questions regarding the trinity and the 144k, I realize that there are many explanations, so many that I can't unequivocally believe just one, except this - God is Love.

    Wishing you all a Happy Journey!

  • NikL

    I am kind of where you are at. Trying to figure things out. Here is where I am at today which may be different tomorrow as I endeavor to learn more about the real "truth" about God.

    As to the divinity of Jesus...

    I think of it this way.

    God the father, Jesus, and the Holy spirit are all different manifestations of GOD.

    God in heaven as a spirit is the father. That's why no one has seen him but the son.

    God in the form of man so that man can see him and understand God the father is Jesus.

    The holy spirit is God as he moves in us and does things in the world around us.

    I don't see why God can't wear different hats and be in more than one place at a time. Couldn't God who created the universe and EVERYTHING separate a piece of himself into a different person (Jesus) and let him experience being fully human to pay the ransom?

    Just where my head is at.

    Best wishes on your journey of discovery in freedom from the darkness of the Watchtower.

  • Awakenednow

    "1 is The Absolute or unity" (unpolarized energy) becomes conscious of itself simultaneously creates 2

    "2 is polarized energy and represents the Fall...Male and female energy Yin/yang and simultaneously creates 3

    "3 is needed to establish a relationship between 2, reconcilng opposites".

    Example - male/female is not a relationship. There must be an emotion/contract to create the relationship I.e. Love

    marriage is a trinity made up of M/F/L and actually creates 4 but you need to study all that if you are interested in the sacredness of numbers as the ancient mystery schools taught.

    Thus 3 in 1...the interaction is what is labeled a mystery and more easily understood with the heart in a sense of knowing rather than intellectually.

    God is the Absolute - 3 making up the 1

    The Father is the Absolute conscious of itself (1) - creative force

    Jesus (son) - The Word (2) - the creative command

    HS - the intention, emotion, active force (3)

    all simultaneously existing in the one. The son therefore is the only begotten.

    Thus, trinities exist representing male,female,sons' etc.all over the world.

    In Egypt, Tum (transcendent cause - Male) created Atum (atom) out of Nun (none) (primeval waters- feminine)

  • Awakenednow

    I believe the biblical Jesus is written into this ancient teaching but was himself an individual, if that helps lol.

  • Libby

    @Londo111 that's really interesting what you're saying about most of Revelation applying to the first century and it nearly not being included. Do you have any links to information on this ?

    Thanks everyone I've found all your thoughts really helpful. It's really hard to get my head around it all.

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