I'll post the reference when I get home this aft.
I'll post the reference when I get home this aft.
The reference is
The Way to Paradise pp. 228, 229
I personally find that in helping someone out ,one has to be very patient and subtle. Not like a canon ball-barraging them with all that is wrong with the organization. Ofcourse different strokes for different folks but in my friends (2) case this approach has been true in helping the friend out. When I first mentioned something(sorry cant remember what it was), I got slapped in the face with(not literally) "Are you becoming an apostate? that is seriously bordering on apostate speech !"
I was shocked and afraid too coz I was a fresh PIMO.I could not believe that my best friend would not even give me a chance and reason with me,leave alone correct my thinking if I have gone astray of the truth ! I immediately excused myself and left the matter there and apologized.
Next I only brought another subject up at the KH when a letter was read about signing a pledge of money every month. I just asked pretending not to clearly understand how it was voluntary,....somewhere on those lines. The person willingly obliged to discuss this so I took th opportunity to discuss different scenarios of different families in the cong and how this seems unreasonable n all. the person was happy to see my point too and possibly a seed was sown.I dont know coz I cant read minds.
Next after quite a while I mentioned about a child abuse case going on in a nearby cong with a brother involved. The person did not indulge me too much but was willing to hear my reasoning out .How can elders close thier eyes to this,sweep under the carpet; all children at risk if not taken proper action etc etc. My friend did not answer much but could see my line of reasoning.and boy I quoted one or two scriptures in order to make the person feel that I was just not fathoming all this and I was actually discussing with my friend for explanation.
Nothing much came out of this one but after a month or so when my friend was working with the PO of our cong , he mentioned about the same child abuse case and discussed in more detail with the friend.That must have struck another seed somehwere and I assume my friend seemed to start to believein me; what I had shared in the past with my friend; my confusions and doubts too. Immediately after, I got a phone call to meet for lunch. I was scared that my friend had ratted me out to the PO (Who is PIMI). We met and my friend then discussed what the PO said and then my friend wanted to see where I got the info from. Mind you I only showed the news article nothing else. This opened my friends eyes some.
Then on every time a letter was read at the hall ie merge of KH'S; The loans canceleld etc I started discussing what was not sounding right at all. Things that any thinking person would question. If my friend could answer my questions , it sounded reasonable or not I would let things be ,I would not counter attack or counter question,Thereby laying a foundation of trusting my friend as a sounding board and leaning on my friend.
I would say this was a long process of patiently biding ones time and keeping emotions in check .
In a few months the one who believed strongly in Jehovah, now has serious doubts and makes statements like if God exists then.....! I am happy to say that I have never influenced my friend just pointed out my doubts, why I struggled to accept, beieve, trust the organization that is all. If my friend has answers then to enlighten me and lead me to the right path .
Now my friends are both POMO. So my suggestion is not to try to steer too hard or else the car can careen out of control and there be a lot of damage and you do not want that. please be patient,this cant be hurried.
Sorry this was long but not long enough coz it took ages to come to this stage for me. I do not try to influence anyone, just nudge them to start thinking for themselves and whatever they conclude in or out will be thier decision toatlly and I will respect that.
Everything that Z said.
Don't bombard a JW with facts. Slow and steady. Know when to say things and when to back off and let him think for a few days or weeks.
Try to reach his 'authentic self' — the reasonable person that resides behind the cult defensive wall. Nobody really believes that billions of good men, women and children deserve to be destroyed tomorrow just because they are unconvinced by the ramblings of an organisation that has got so many things wrong. Nobody really thinks it was a moral good for Joshua to follow god's instructions and commit infanticide. Try to reason with that person. Pick your moments. Be patient.
As for not going to war be content just to sow a few seeds of doubt. If your life was in imminent danger would he want armed police to save you? Apart from scale what's the ethical difference?
“What makes you think that it’s the truth?”
- He said “that JWs don’t go to war”
I have to admit i smirked when i read this, because i just said this exact same thing a few days ago - that JWs use these types of reasons when they try to validate the truthfulness of the cult.
btw, that reason is just pure nonsense. So if there was a village made up of JWs only, and they knew a neighboring village was coming to attack them and kill them all, wouldn't they get organized to defend themselves?
If the answer is yes, then the idea of an army can be defensible. Just like a person has the right to defend itself, so does a village, or a country.
JWs are not pacifists. They will call in armed police to protect themselves.
Thank you everyone. Your thoughts and questions are very helpful. How do you reach the persons authentic self. I’ve seen times when he reason and speaks in a way that is open and logical. Then I see him go into his cult mind, getting defensive and coming up with any illogical answer or deflecting.
And now he knows I am completely out, and that I feel the organization is 100% false. So I can’t come at him from the side , asking an innocent question trying to get an answer. I believe he does trust me and knows I am sincere in my thinking. Uggghh I guess time will tell. I feel like I have a loved one in the ICU and I’m helpless all I can do is wait and see if he lives or dies.
It's really hard to come across as questioning the truth to someone still in without them instantly putting up the barriers. I have been waiting patiently for the 'panacea' or 100% guaranteed method of questioning because I know that once it has been said it cannot be undone. Be patient, listen to everyones thoughts and tailor them to the right time that you know best may work. There are 100s of questions that can work but each one at their own time may or may not work in your situation. Softly, softly, catchy monkey??!
Another thing I spoke to them about was about the convention accomodation arrangement by the organization.The first time I heard it , I let it pass, it did niggle at me. What difference would it make where I stayed, the spiritual food is all that the organization should be giving out , not spelling out every little detail of my life ! Then a second year round it really got to me so just had to check the prices we were getting via the organization and the normal going rates. Bingo, the prices were cheaper to go direct to the hotels than via the organization. I cannot say about everyone worldwide or even countrywide but my own. This time I mumbled a few things about it to my friends who did not seem to have a fair answer for this and they knew it too.
Fast forward to the convention, we were all in this lounge of the hotel assigned by the organization.Most of us in the lounge area were witnesses after the program finished , in the evning relaxing and "associating". Somehow an elders wife started questioning us all (as most of them do, like they have the authority just being an elders wife) about how did you book via the organizations directions or not etc,etc. Found out prices too (such a nosy bitch). Moment of truth a few had booked direct and had come off $200 cheaper than the rest who had used the organizations "orders"! I was fuming inside coz I did not earn this kind of money to throw away ie over 2 weeks wages gone in three days of spiritual food. I had made up my mind there and then no more conventions for me come what may! Jehovah has to understand (if he exists).
Travelling back home afer the convention my friends started to discuss this topic with me and now openly agreeing that yes it is not right and started to see light in what I had pointed out before.
So you see, you must pick points , express it gently and hope that the thinking clock starts to tick ! A lot of patience and of course alert to opportunites that arise. Never to overindulge in conversations, let some things simmer and hope for the best.