The big question is "Why doesn't the rank and file see the absurdity of these bible stories?"
Do they just not have the ability to reason?
Are they a few points to the negative side of the standard deviation for intelligence?
Why was Amnon (son of David) not put to death for raping his half-sister Tamar
by blondie 19 Replies latest jw friends
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blondie
iusedtobebad, if I were preaching to non-jws that don't believe the bible is from god, I might use your approach, they already have that viewpoint. But I think jws and some ex-jws need a more comprehensive response to see why the history, doctrine, etc., have no relationship to other things taught in the bible. The values presented are all over the map.
You are already convinced and seem to think that many jws might share your view. I have not experienced that. A close friend of mine had been out over 25 years, not attended anything jw, but still clung to some beliefs because he wanted to see his deceased mother again. But he cherrypicked what he disagreed with and resisted the info I shared with him regarding the hypocritical core of the WTS. Five years ago he started reading this site and watching various youtube presentations made by ex-jws. Finally, the visual experience started opening his eyes. I'm glad to say that he finally made peace with his past and was enjoying his current life. I'm glad because he died suddenly after about 5 years of freedom.
So I feel it is not enough to simply say the bible is a bunch of fables and lies. Even fables contain some useful information about life. So does the bible, but is foolish and dangerous to attribute that wisdom to some unseen god who is not consistent with his rules for humans, or at least as he is presented by the humans that wrote the bible.
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Vidiot
blondie - "Why was Amnon (son of David) not put to death for raping his half-sister Tamar?"
Ah, the elephant in the room for a lot of Biblical literalists that most are too embarrassed to admit...
...according to the Bible - "God's Word", no less - human beings (particularly women and children) were - more often than not - property, with virtually no real exceptions.
(This is spoken of throughout the Bible... quite explicitly, in fact, which IMO, makes the elephant than much bigger.)
A married woman was her husband's property...
...so if another man "lay" with her (whatever the circumstances), it was first and foremost a form of theft which could threaten lineage, inheritances, and the like.
Similarly with a young unmarried woman... she was her father's property.
Speaking to the Biblical account of Amnon and Tamar...
...both of them would have technically been their father King David's property, so he would have felt absolutely conflicted about the whole thing, just from that standpoint alone (not to mention that sexual indiscretions would have hit uncomfortably close to home for him)...
...plus, Amnon was good-looking and popular, and a bit of a favorite...
...plus, Tamar was "just a girl" and therefore would - culturally - not have been viewed as important as a male offspring...
...plus, I suspect that as he got older, David had gotten kind of soft as a parental disciplinarian (not judging, I am too) and he hoped that the whole thing would just blow over, assuming Tamar wasn't pregnant.
All in all, a fucked-up set of circumstances, to say the least.
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blondie
I realize that secular history tells a different story. But the WTS holds this out as an example for sisters to look at as a current event that applies in this world. Yes, the WTS is comparing apples with oranges. They also interpret the story about Dinah to their own ideas regarding sisters, blaming them for associating with the wrong people and thus the rape is the sister's fault.
Here the WTS compares a rape to sexual immorality by mutual consent:
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101976088#h=28:0-28:797
Love based solely on passion is not an enduring love. It is a selfish, greedy love. That kind of love is well illustrated in the Bible by the case of one of David’s sons, named Amnon. He “fell in love” with his beautiful half sister Tamar. Then, through trickery, he forced her into having relations with him. After that, what? The record tells us: “And Amnon began hating her with a very great hatred, because the hatred with which he hated her was greater than the love with which he had loved her.” He sent her out into the street. (2 Samuel 13:1-19) Now, if you are a young woman, should you naïvely think that, because some boy expresses passionate love for you and wants you to have relations with him, this means he sincerely loves you? He may very well turn out to be just as Amnon was.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1976763#h=22:0-23:122
David’s oldest son Amnon developed a passionate desire for his lovely half sister Tamar. Feigning sickness, he maneuvered things so that Tamar was the one who waited on him, bringing him food when no one else was around. He then “grabbed hold of her and said to her: ‘Come, lie down with me, my sister.’” She virtuously protested, but he refused to listen and forced her to lie down with him. Did he really get what he desired out of this? The record describes the result: “Amnon began hating her with a very great hatred, . . . greater than the love with which he had loved her, so that Amnon said to her: ‘Get up, go away!’”—2 Sam. 13:1-33.
18 Clearly, the fulfilling of Amnon’s passionate, incestuous desire brought no real pleasure to him or to his half sister. And this so often is the case when persons engage in immoral sex relations. The Journal of the American Medical Association reported this confession of a youth who had premarital sex relations with many misled girls. “I have learned that this did not bring me happiness.” Also, a tearful young co-ed said of such an experience: “It sure wasn’t worth it—it was no fun at the time, I’ve been worried ever since.”
My Book of Bible Stories--so rape is love?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101978117?q=tamar+amnon&p=sen
First, Bath-sheʹba’s son dies. Then David’s firstborn son Amʹnon gets his sister Taʹmar alone and forces his love on her.
Compared to sexual harassment, so Tamar had reason she was not safe with half-brother
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101996362?q=tamar+amnon&p=sen
Avoid compromising situations. The Bible tells how a young man named Amnonschemed to be alone with a young woman named Tamar so that he could take advantage of her sexually. (2 Samuel 13:1-14) Harassers today may behave similarly, perhaps inviting a subordinate to share an alcoholic drink or to remain at work after hours for no apparent reason. Beware of such invitations! Says the Bible: “Shrewd is the one that has seen the calamity and proceeds to conceal himself.”—Proverbs 22:3.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1980761?q=tamar+amnon&p=sen
Learn, too, from the sad experience of Tamar, the young woman who was maneuvered by her half brother Amnon into an isolated place where he raped her. This case illustrates the need to be aware, to be conscious of the attitudes and feelings of others toward you. If Tamar had earlier detected Amnon’s passionate feelings for her, she might have been able to avoid getting into the situation she did.
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iwantoutnow
The big question is "Why doesn't the rank and file see the absurdity of these bible stories?"
You mean like when a when a donkey started talking to the guy riding him? They guy has an argument with the donkey like it was a normal thing, instead of freaking out and running away?
All I can say is that I spent most of my life believing stories like that, and I would wager that most of us here did too.
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FedUpJW
Deuteronomy 24:16 that states that children are not to be put to death for their parent’s sin!
Of course there is no contradiction in the bible when it states in Exodus 20:5 . . .I Jehovah your God am a God....bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation.
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Xanthippe
Why are they comparing a rape story from the Bible to premarital sex? The two scenarios are not similar at all. One is about violence and the other is about consenting adults who want to have sex.
I don't like the way they keep describing the victim as beautiful Tamar and lovely Tamar. What are they implying, that it was partly her fault for being attractive?
Why do they describe the rape as violating her virginity. Wouldn't it have been so bad if she hadn't been a virgin? Are they saying two consenting young people raised as JWs having sex are violating the girl's virginity? Stupid, there's nothing precious about virginity, what an ancient, out-dated belief.
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stillin
Blondie"I wonder if others have had a similar moment when reading the scriptures."
One that got me was the account of Naaman's healing from leprosy. He became a worshipper of Jehovah, but he was going to have to go back to his homeland,where the worship of Rimmon was the thing. He was concerned about carrying out his duty of accompanying his master into the temple of Rimmon and bowing before Rimmon with him. Elisha assured him that it would be OK and to go in peace.
The Witnesses carry the "getting out of Babylon the Great " to a pharisaical level. My wife, who was born in, won't go into a Catholic Church for a family wedding or funeral. It's a big deal in our marriage because I never felt that my worship of Jehovah was compromised by any of that. Of course, now I see that it was all cult-control, but there was that section of scripture (2Kings 5:18, 19) to support my view, but the WTS never acknowledged that scripture, to my knowledge.
I can't stand self-righteous, judgemental people!
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days of future passed
blondie
Clearly, the fulfilling of Amnon’s passionate, incestuous desire brought no real pleasure to him or to his half sister. And this so often is the case when persons engage in immoral sex relations.
Always putting the blame on the girl. They make it out that she wanted to have sex with him. It's no different when they talk about rape in present day articles. Somehow it's the woman's responsibility to always avoid rape in every circumstance. Never mind if the man stalks her, or has a weapon etc. And then there is this one article about how women should empathize with the rapist - poor guy had a tough life ........
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Vidiot
future passed - "...Never mind if the man stalks her, or has a weapon etc. And then there is this one article about how women should empathize with the rapist - poor guy had a tough life..."
I know, right?
Fucking morons.