Two witness rule: who cares?

by _Morpheus 58 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • _Morpheus

    I find people railing against the so called “two witness rule” puzzling. I think its a complete and total non issue.

    For those that protest, argue or advocate for change in that rule, why?

  • Phoebe


    Because people like me cannot get justice within the organization as a result of that stupid rule.

    Because it's devastating when an elder says to you 'it's your word against his, nothing we can do.'

    Because no one will listen to you.

    That's one of the reasons I left but many can't. That's why we want change.

  • Wasanelder Once
    Wasanelder Once

    You're killing me Morpheus. Really? Too funny. The two witness rule is the curtain the pedos hide behind allowing institutionalized abuse to fester.

  • Giordano

    I am going to guess that you were trying to be funny Morp as the 'two witness rule 'is not funny when it comes to minors....... even babies. Enough said.

  • _Morpheus

    No humor implied or offered. Pedophilia is never funny. Its a serious question for serious discussion. Here is my point:

    two witnesses, no witnesses who cares. Its the half assed rule of a half assed religions internal star chamber procedings. Its irrelevant.


    Why does anyone give a single damn if three church officials think one of their congregants is guilty of child abuse? So what? What if there are two witnesses and they pronounce him guilty. Does that result administer anything like justice??? They could find him or guilty of child abuse and still not df him or her. Even if they do df the offender, so what? Is that any source of justice?

    my point is, obsessing over what the cult wants to accept as evidence of a crime is pointless and a waste of time. The end result, even if they changed their rule, is still nothing. Absolutely nothing.

    if you want to protest something or demand a REAL change with REAL effect, demand that ALL allegations be reported to the authorities. Period.

    An obvious side effect of that is that if real investigators find a real crime and convict said offender, the congregation will be obligated to take action.

    So instead of pointless signs demanding some esoteric rule be modified or yelling out side some witness convention about it, point out the real and obvious problem: report all abuse. Report all allegations. Let the police do their job.

  • Wasanelder Once
    Wasanelder Once

    I agree that the two witness rule should not prevent law enforcement from being notified. The problem is that the enforcement of such a bullshit rule is a church law that the majority submit to because it is the source of sanction in the congregation. Considering the firm warning about tarnishing the reputation of the org it contributes to hesitancy to report and since the witnesses won't engage with "Satan's" system it contributes to suffering. In addition it has contributed to moving the Pedos around without warning, endangering more kids. Think about it, they'll let their kids die from no blood at the GB's insistence. If they do that they will let them be raped in silence before harming the reputation of the true organization of god. Aw hell, you know this Morph. Anyway.... You da man!

  • days of future passed
    days of future passed

    One of the problems with the two witness rule, is the adherence of the bibles explanation of what constitutes "two witnesses" The bible is all about two human witnesses.

    Certainly the person who is the victim is one and the other "witness" can be proof collected by the police.

    But I agree that the main flaw is the non reporting to the police.

  • Xanthippe

    It's in the Bible and reinforced by the religion so JWs feel to defy the rule is to defy Jehoobah and therefore lose everlasting life for themselves and their children.

    Like all the other rules, no university, no blood, no birthdays, it adversely affects their children but they reason better to keep to the rules than lose everlasting life. Stupid? Yes, but all of us here used to believe it!

    That's why it's a terrible rule that's destroying lives. It's emotional blackmail keeping them from reporting it to the police and keeping the pedophiles roaming the organization freely.

  • cofty

    The ‘two witness rule’ and the resistance to reporting credible allegations to the authorities go hand-in-hand.

    Currently the organisations starts from a position of protecting its reputation at all costs — don’t bring reproach on Jehovah’s name. When a victim reports abuse, the assumption is that without collaboration nothing can or should be done. There will be no further investigation by the elders and they definitely will not be taking it outside the organisation. The victim and/or victim’s parents will be left in no doubt that they are expected to ‘leave it in Jehovah’s hands’.

    What needs to change first is attitude. Correct procedure will follow from that.

    The reputation of the organisation needs to take second place to child welfare. If that was the case then there would be an eagerness to get to the truth of any report of abuse. That would involve reporting it to the authorities — or supporting the victim and/or parents to do so — and investigating the matter internally to the extent that can be done without prejudicing an official investigation.

    Two witness rule: who cares? - Morph

    I do and so should you.

  • truth_b_known

    I see Morpheus' point -

    Jehovah's Witnesses could end the practice and belief of the "Two Witness Rule" and still stick to their guns on not reporting to the police. All the Two Witness Rule does is prevent pedophiles who are Witnesses from being disfellowshipped.

    I live in a state where failure to report a felony is a crime punishable up to 1 year in the county jail. I wholeheartedly would like to see Witnesses locked up for failing to report child abuse, especially sexual assault. Explain that to the public; that you would rather do time in jail then report child predators to the police.

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