by sandy 78 Replies latest watchtower bible
Truly I tell you today,you will be with me in paradise
Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise
What a huge difference the placing of a comma makes -- hence one can translate the bible to ones own bias -- even though one has translated every Greek word correctly
Here is a short WTS explanation
*** w94 6/15 p. 6 Your Dead Loved Ones?Will You See Them Again? ***
Resurrection to Life on Earth
But what about Jesus? promise to the criminal who died alongside him? Like many Jews of that time, this man believed that God would send a Messiah who would set up a kingdom and restore peace and security to the Jewish nation on earth. (Compare 1 Kings 4:20-25 with Luke 19:11; 24:21 and Acts 1:6.) Moreover, the evildoer expressed faith that Jesus was the very One chosen by God to be the King. Yet, at that moment, Jesus? imminent death as a condemned man made this seem unlikely. That is why Jesus reassured the criminal by introducing His promise with these words: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise."?Luke 23:42, 43.
Bible translations that insert a comma before the word "today" create a problem for people who want to understand Jesus? words. Jesus did not go to any paradise that very same day. Rather, he lay unconscious in death for three days until God resurrected him. Even after Jesus? resurrection and ascension to heaven, he had to wait at his Father?s right hand until the time came for him to rule as King over mankind. (Hebrews 10:12, 13) Soon, Jesus? Kingdom rule will bring relief to mankind and transform the entire earth into a paradise. (Luke 21:10, 11, 25-31) Then he will fulfill his promise to that criminal by resurrecting him to life on earth. And Jesus will be with the man in the sense that He will help with all the man?s needs, including the need to bring his life-style into harmony with God?s righteous laws.
A comma, a comma, a comma, what a difference a comma makes.
This question was posed in the site http://www.webshowplace.com/question/101quest.html ?101 questions every Jehovah?s Witness should be asked using the NWT?.
They also offer some tips when fighting for child custody over a dub. http://www.webshowplace.com/question/index.html
The one referring to what Jesus said to the thieves was posed as question 59
59. Jesus uses the phrase "Truly I say to you,..." over 50 times in the Bible. In the NWT, the comma is placed after the word "you" every time except in Lk 23:43, where the comma is placed after the word "today". Why is the comma placed after "today" instead of after "you" in this verse? According to Strong?s Greek Dictionary, the word ?paradise? (Gr-paradeisos ? Strong?s #3857) refers to ?the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection?, where Jesus would go in order to preach after his death (1Pet 3:18-20, 1Pet 4:5-6). By using this word instead of the Greek word for ?heaven?, wasn?t Luke showing that Jesus was not referring to heaven when he made this statement? If the translation of this phrase in Lk 23:43 was consistent with the translation of this phrase in every other verse in which it appears (see concordance), and the comma was placed after the word "you", how would this verse read?
I made my own research on the following link.
Notice that the comma invariable does follow the word ?you?.
I think that the problem is that you trust this guys with really putting the ?word of god? first, and then interpreting it. It did not occur to me to doubt them. This is how truly evil they are.
In Mexico, if you commit a crime and add ?abuso de confianza? (abuse of trust), more time is added to your punishment. They are sure guilty of abuse of trust.
Matthew 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. Matthew 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Matthew 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. Mark 14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
Faraon
I thought I would do a further research and see what other bibles had to say about this, going by the verse Luke 23:43
International Version (NIV)
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (1) Paradise."
The Message (MSG)
43He said, "Don't worry, I will. Today you will join me in paradise." [not after you and today, but no comma after ?today?]
Amplified Bible (AMP)
43And He answered him, Truly I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.
New Living Translation (NLT)
43And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."
King James Version (KJV)
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
English Standard Version (ESV)
43And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
Contemporary English Version (CEV)
43Jesus replied, "I promise that today you will be with me in paradise." [1]
New King James Version (NKJV)
43And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise."
American Standard Version (ASV)
43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
43 And Jesus said to him, `I tell you the truth. Today you will be with me in God's garden of paradise.'
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
43 and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
Darby Translation (DARBY)
43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)
43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
New International Version - UK (NIV-UK)
43 Jesus answered him, I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.
As you can see all these translations give the idea of the thief being in paradise the same day with Jesus.
A further question that I have and has bothered me is why would Jesus say that he was telling the truth as if it was in doubt or if he had lied in other occasions?
Another thing that bothered me was the thing about paradise instead of heaven. I followed the suggestion from the 101 questions and came with the following:
http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=3857
Result of search for "3857":
3857 paradeisos par-ad'-i-sos of Oriental origin (compare 6508); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):--paradise.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1072493559-2473.html
Lexicon Results for paradeisos (Strong's 3857)
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
2) a garden, pleasure ground
a) grove, park
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
5) heaven
Hope this has been of some help.
Faraon
Sorry about so much format corrections but somehow when you quote something and appears in the post, if you include the link in the quote, the whole thing will be underlined and in purple. Hope it is better now, if not, sorry. I must learn the quirks of this site's formatting.
About the importance of proper punctuation:
You know, this is interesting.
I'm wondering now if Jesus wasn't being allegorical here for the sake of comforting this man. That is, since he would die one moment and wake up the next some 3000 years later after all those years of unconsciousness, it would seem like to him it was the same day. SUBJECTIVELY he would die and wake up the same day. So maybe Jesus was saying it would seem like the same day he would be with Jesus in paradise.
ON PARADISE: Just to clarify this a bit. Jesus will be present in person on the earth and in the flesh during the millennium. The only peple resurrected into the millennium back into the flesh are the anointed ones. This would not include this evildoer. After the millennial reign of Christ, Satan is let loose to test mankind again. Those who rebel with Satan will be destroyed along with Satan. THEN will come Judgment Day. But this still will be under paradisaic conditions. Thus Jesus was speaking of JUDGMENT DAY when this evildoer would come back and be in paradise.
TECHNICAL SAME DAY: Of course, there is the TECHNICAL PLAY ON WORDS here as well. After all, When it speaks of the CREATIVE DAYS, it says on the "seventh DAY God rested." So though a "day" could be many things, including 24 hours or 1000 years, it is also 7000 years. So maybe Christ was saying before the end of this Creative Day he would be with him in Paradise, particularly since Judgment Day comes at the very end of this Creative Day, which means Jesus was thinking about the chronology of the end of this Creative Day, but at the same time knowing the evil doer did not know that but would subjectively think it was the same day from the time he died to when he woke up, Jesus used those words. It would be true in both senses.
Hmmmmm.....
Thanks for posting this. This scripture works either way depending upon which "day" Jesus is referring to.
JC
Jesus will be present in person on the earth and in the flesh during the millennium.
The "millenium" (ie. a literal 1000 years) is a popular but very misconceived notion of prophetic writings - much like "armageddon"
But back to the thread
"Truly I tell you today,......." means jws believe that Jesus "waffles on" a bit
typical
Sandy,
While punctuation does make a difference in this case it can be disregarded. Why? Because our Lord?s words were prophetic and the paradise to which He alluded was yet thousands of years away. The thief was to die but his future life by means of a resurrection into such Paradise was pre-determined on that day. It is as if it started then since his death would be nothing more than sleep at this point. Paradise will therefore include more than just annointed ones. It will also include sheep selected from among all mankind such as this thief that would die that day. Nothing more can be made of this text regardless of where the comma is placed.
Joseph
Faraon..thankyou for the post. Defition 3 of Paradise represents the only way a Jew of the first centuryCE would have understood the words. In the story Jesus is telling the man he was worthy of going to Paradise in Hades to enjoy happiness until a final judgement. Jesus would see him there. All the rest of this thread's comments have interpreted the line thru a Catholic Christian lens leading to confusion and unnecessary exegesis. As of right now, I see this and numerous other examples of Judaisms in the NT as evidence of an originally Jewish Jesus story that soon thereafter was extensively Hellenized, incorporating more and more solar elements. It may have been the revearse but it seems less likely. Then a final touch up by proto-Catholic writers was made to fully historize the Jesus character.
I support Peaceful Pete's interp on this issue.
