And like the rest of the Gallileans and the rest of sinful humans for that matter. All need to repent. The point is Jesus was contradicting the idea that disasters befall people because they are especially sinful. Of course Jesus also taught that all humans are sinful, but his point here is that people who suffer calamity are not especially sinful.
Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?
by kpop 102 Replies latest jw friends
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cofty
So at last you agree with my understanding of the text.
As I said above "The victims of the Asian tsunami included thousands of christians who had already repented as well as countless innocent babies and infants. This was not a perfect act of love. Therefore the god of Jesus does not exist."
A god who murders his own and who kills babies for the fun of watching them drown is not the epitome of love. Therefore Jesus was deluded.
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Coded Logic
Wow Crofty, call me biased, but I think you absolutely tore his argument to shreds. I especially enjoyed your analogy about knowing the earth isn't flat. This really goes to the heart of a lot of the reverse arguments from ignorance that SBF attempts to bring into his conversations - aka - we don't know everything therefore we can't say anything definitively.
But, despite any bias real or imagined, I have to say truly a good job to both of you. You both consistently talked to each other instead of past each other. Also, very refreshing to see a lengthy discussion like this without it deteriorating into a series of ad hominen attacks. I hope to read more from you guys.
At the end of the day I don't rate debates by winners and losers. But on how informative I thought the discussion was. Good job again! :)
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slimboyfat
My point was that Jesus was not unaware of disasters. He didn't offer the excuse that people die for a reason or they must have done something to deserve it. Neither does he say "if you repent then nothing bad can ever happen to you". He seems to accept that bad things can happen and does not find this incompatible with his view of God.
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slimboyfat
I posted the last message ages ago. Not sure why it is showing up now.
Coded, Cofty often invokes a flat earth theory as a sort of trump card. I guess you are being serious about it being compelling, despite my initial reaction you must be joking.
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cofty
He didn't offer the excuse that people die for a reason or they must have done something to deserve it.
Yes that is precisely what he said.
Like all unrepentant inhabitants of Jerusalem they got what was coming to them and his hearers would liable to suffer a similar fate UNLESS THEY REPENT.
So if they do repent they won't suffer the same fate. That is the deal.
The Asian tsunami and similar events killed thousands of christians who had repented as well as thousands of innocent babies. Reality makes a liar of Jesus and the god of Jesus does not exist.
It's very tedious having to explain this repeatedly.
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slimboyfat
He mentioned Gallilee and Jerusalem. You think he was isolating a particular group rather than "sinful" humans in general?
It reads to me like Jesus was saying: you think those people must have been especially bad because they died? They were not especially bad it could happen to anyone. Everyone needs to repent if they want to live. Matthew Henry seems to agree.
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bohm
Different Gospels, different authors, different Jesuses, different messages...
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cofty
Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
For the fourth time the Asian tsunami destroyed tens of thousands who had repented as well as thousands of innocent babies and infants.Therefore Luke 13 is irrelevant to the conversation.
The god of Jesus is love. The god who caused the Asian tsunami would be evil. Therefore the god of Jesus does not exist.
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slimboyfat
I think Jesus was promising salvation if they repent, not simply avoiding death in this or that disaster. He was using the two disasters to make the point that disasters can befall anyone but that the only way to be saved in the end is to repent.