And then it hit me: we were abused

by Anders Andersen 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  dubstepped

  @David_Jay - I appreciate your take, but not all abuse results in bruising, sore genitals, etc. You are taking your situation and making it the bar for abuse. Abuse also occurs in strictly emotional terms, and honestly it frightens me for those that you work with that you have such a narrow view of abuse. In fact, trying to tell people that feel abused that they aren't simply because it wasn't as bad as you had it is itself abusive. Invalidation of others fits right in line with emotionally abusive behavior.

  Let me also add that I'm sorry for what you went through. It sounds like a person's worst nightmare. However, again that doesn't make it the measure of the spectrum of abuse.
• 

  Anders Andersen

  @David_Jay,

  As always I very much appreciate your balanced viewpoint.
  When starting the topic I had actual JW parents in mind, and how they raise their children, not adult JW and how they are treated and controlled by Watchtower.

  I can fully see your point of view on this matter: 'religious abuse' as performed by JW parents pales in comparison to the horrible things some parents do to their children.
  Yet I agree with what dubstepped said. There are many forms of child abuse, and the severity varies from 'just a little bit wrong' to 'utterly horrific and evil'. The fact that 'utterly horrific and evil abuse' exists, does not mean 'just a little bit wrong' isn't abuse, even when the two are completely incomparable.
  
  That being said, I really don't care about what label we should apply. We can probably agree that some ways of (mis)treating and raising children is wrong and damaging, whether we call it abuse or not.

  It is my opinion that many Jehovah's Witness parents display a huge number of the hallmarks of 'religious abuse'.
  Some of it is 'inflicted' by the parents themselves; some of it is inflicted by Watchtower, but it's the parents who allow and endorse it.

  • Dichotomous Thinking – Jehovah's people vs worldly, godless people.

  • Elitism – JW children are not allowed to be friends (or even have extra-curricular contact) with non-JW

  • Submission – Have a chat with the teenagers here or on www.reddit.com/r/exjw and it becomes clear that many JW parents do not tolerate deviating beliefs and idea.

  • Labeling – Worldly and godless people, apostates, etc.

  • Public Performance – This one is less applicable I think.

  • Legalistic – Many JW parents have set views that doesn't allow for individual expression and input from their children.

  • Segregation – How many JW children are allowed to have contact with DFed aunts, uncles and grandparents?

  • Blind Obedience – Obey me because Jehovah says you should do so

  • Abuse of Authority – This one is less prevalent, but many JW parents still force their (almost adult) children to go along to meetings when they don't want to.

  • Fraud – Not so much, but information is kept from most JW children. All JW children (instinctively) know some information is off-limits...

  Granted, most JW parents don't raise their children this way because they are evil or try to mess up their children. On the contrary, they try to do right by their children by raising them as JW.
  But so do many other parents who use abusive 'parenting techniques' simply because they don't know what they are doing is abusive and damaging their child.

  The way JW raise their children is damaging and can imho rightfully be called abusive. Some of the cult-related issues can take years to process and get rid of, even when the parents were otherwise loving and kind.
• 

  David_Jay

  @dubstepped

  I strongly believe that there are such things as religious abuse and that members of the Jehovah's Witnesses may have experienced different forms of this in different ways.

  I never stated that my experience was the "measure of the spectrum of abuse."

  I never tried to make it "the bar for abuse."

  I only stated that having to live the life of a JW child is not in and of itself child abuse.

  ...honestly it frightens me for those that you work with that you have such a narrow view of abuse. In fact, trying to tell people that feel abused that they aren't simply because it wasn't as bad as you had it is itself abusive. Invalidation of others fits right in line with emotionally abusive behavior.

  Apparently you are the judge of what constitutes a "narrow view of abuse" in a comment on this thread. I didn't think I told people who felt abused that they were NOT abused because it wasn't the same type of abuse I went through, but apparently you have this ability to look deep inside another person and determine that is what they meant. So I am going with you.

  Thank you for telling me I was invalidating the feelings of others. Apparently you would never make such a mistake, and never by your words make someone who went through abuse feel worse for sharing their own feelings on the matter...you obviously also took a lot of consideration on how hard it was for me to share that.

  Peace to you all.
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  David_Jay

  And I would like to apologize to anyone else who found my post as an attempt to say that there are not other forms of abuse. I was only calling for some perspective on matters.
• 

  sparky1

  David_Jay, I for one was taken aback by what you described happening to you as a child. So much so that I wanted to comment on your post but I didn't know how to. You have my sincerest condolences for what happened to you. Rather than try to catalogue what is child abuse and what is not child abuse, I think that all of us here must accept and realize that abuse happens on a spectrum and is not amenable to absolutist and strict guidelines. Much like pain, the abuse is subjective and can range from 'mild' to 'severe'. As for me and my siblings, we were raised by a fanatical, single, mentally unbalanced Jehovah's Witness mother. So in addition to the list that Anders Andersen posted we were subjected to whippings with electrical extension cords. beatings with broomsticks, the buckle end of a belt and on and on........ So rather that any of us making an intellectual exercise out of this topic, lets all agree that abuse of a child is wrong no matter what form it takes and no matter who is doing the abusing. I wish you well on your journey and much success in life.
  
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  David_Jay

  No, I feel I shouldn't have said anything as I was merely comparing being raised as a Witness without beatings, etc and saying that alone was not abuse. But if others believe that such is abuse, even without such things then I am not going to deny that of them. Apparently how I wrote things show, as dubstepped wrote, that there is something that even the people I work with should fear of me. I will seriously take that into consideration.

  I feel very bad now for participating and the mistake I've made. Please accept my apology. I will move on to other subjects now, but thanks again for the correction.
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  nonjwspouse

  David, you have every single right to express yourself. And to get out of you, inn some small way, here on this forum, that horrors you suffered, I can only hope helped release at least a fraction of it.

  No child should ever have to go through what you did. No adult should ever knowingly keep that quiet.

  I am the one who is truly sorry. Sorry that your childhood was like this, and wish there was a way to change it, even though I know in reality I can't. I can only say I weep tears of sadness for the childhood you endured, and send the most positive energy I can muster, to you.

  You are here, you made it, and now you may be able to help others with the unique perspective you have to understand the horrors of that kind of abuse. May strength and peace be with you each day
  
• 

  David_Jay

  Thank you, nonJWspouse, but I think we need to move on now from me. What probably caused me to write my post without thinking is that I became a JW as teenager, leaving my parents behind for the life of meetings, field service etc. For me it was a relief. The abuse stopped (at least those things I mentioned as happening in my non-JW home before my Witness aunt took me in), and so I cannot say that living that life was anything but a relief. I came from a rich home, all the toys I could want, a nanny, dogs, we even celebrated all the holidays though we were Jews. I guess I knew no better as I was happy to go to meetings and field service and have no Christmas etc., anything but what I was rescued from. But I sincerely appreciate the adjustment. I need some time to move on for a bit, but I did want to thank you for that comment.
• 

  scratchme1010

  No, I feel I shouldn't have said anything as I was merely comparing being raised as a Witness without beatings, etc and saying that alone was not abuse. But if others believe that such is abuse, even without such things then I am not going to deny that of them. Apparently how I wrote things show, as dubstepped wrote, that there is something that even the people I work with should fear of me. I will seriously take that into consideration.

  I feel very bad now for participating and the mistake I've made. Please accept my apology. I will move on to other subjects now, but thanks again for the correction.

  You shouldn't feel that way. You started a great conversation on a topic that all of us have something to say (or are afraid of saying something). You can express yourself and we can all disagree. This isn't a congregation, nor the KH. Here we don't have to same way of thinking, nor the same believes, and that's perfectly ok.

  Again, this topic is a very good and important one. Not a lot of people have the opportunity to talk and express themselves about the issue of abuse of any kind.
  
• 

  dubstepped

  David_Jay - You don't see Witnesses and their children constantly peeing themselves in public places or throwing up in church or school each and everyday because of having been made to follow the rules and miss Christmas. But I would do these things all the time due to the abuse I suffered as a child because I couldn't express emotionally what was happening to me at home when I was in the hands of my father and mother.
  Following strict rules in the Witness religion doesn't leave you with bruises, with bloody noses, with concussions or sore genitals and a bleeding bum. Abuse does. Being taught there are evil spirits or Armageddon that can come any day now is not the same as being tied up and gagged and locked in a closet for a day or two, having to live in your own feces and urine.

  David, with all due respect, these words set your particular horrific example of abuse up as abuse, and you set apart following rules and missing Christmas or being taught about evil spirits or Armageddon as something that isn't abuse. Of course, the OP isn't just talking about simply those matters, but even those matters may have felt very abusive, and as a former JW you know there is more to what is going on than merely being told not to celebrate Christmas or that Armageddon is coming. I can't read those words and not see you holding your example of abuse up as one to measure others against.

  My intent wasn't to shame you for your words, though maybe it came off that way. Intent is hard to read in these highly charged emotional subjects. My apologies if you felt shamed by my response, but my intent was to show that others don't have to feel bad about calling what happened to them abuse because abuse is more about how a person feels than a list of xyz that constitutes "abuse" in an official list. My intent was also to shine light on what I have seen as almost a competition of abuse, where people have a hard time giving weight to what happened to them because someone else had it worse, or where someone that had it worse has a hard time giving weight to what others went through because it wasn't seemingly as bad.

  We may disagree on what constitutes abuse, and you have your right to your feelings on it, as I do mine. I've expressed on here how much I value your posts, but this one took me aback because I had to give weight to my own abuse even though there were no physical scars in order to begin to heal. My mom literally wished my dad would hit her so that she could give weight to it and get out. We all speak to these things from our own experiences and lens and this is an opportunity for us all to learn by speaking to these things. I'll bow out now, but I hope this shines some light on what I wrote. My intent was pure, even if I perhaps was taken aback and reacted too harshly to what I perceived as a harsh view. I do sometimes tend to see things differently than others, so if I misread my apologies are in order.