irrefutable proof of the great apostasy that corrupted the catholic church

by TTWSYF 13 Replies latest watchtower bible


    When the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity in the Roman empire around 311ad he allowed or introduced a flood of half converted pagans and allowed the corruption that sullied the true faith and ruined Christianity until a time when it could be restored to the true and pure faith that it was intended to become. Many people here know that to be a fact. It's a common sense theory, right?

    Historically speaking, there are some 30,000 pages or so of written Christian history predating 311, so you can look back to the 1st century and see where the church was and then walk it to the 2nd, 3rd, 4th centuries all the way up to the 21st century. You can clearly see the shift in Christ;s teachings, right?

    I have not found any evidence of this 'great apostasy'. I have found many examples of people who wanted it to be true and would promote the idea based solely on emotion, but no proof at all what so ever.

    If the great apostasy happened, you could say 'here, on this date [or year] this person/people changed the teachings and turned away from the true Christianity. I'm looking for someone to give a clear example of this apostasy that ruined Christianity.



  • Crazyguy2

    I’m thinking this scripture was written in response to a sect of Christianity that the writer didn’t like. If you notice the gospel of john is a lot different then the others because it could of been put forth by a different sect then the others and somehow made it into the cannon. Some say the Dositens wrote it. It’s my opinion that much of the New Testament came from different sects. Half of Paul’s writings are thought the be forgeries and many of the writings of Paul and other contradict the gospels so it’s anyones guess what the scripture you mention refers to.

  • blondie

    Supposedly, John wrote his letters, book, and Revelation long after the other apostles had died and the other books of the bible canon had been written (100 AD). It would make sense he would have been influenced by other views and writings between 33 AD and 100 AD. I remember in Paul's writings he talked about Christians that were saying the resurrection had already occurred and that these people were already ruling as kings.

    2 Corinthians 4:6-14

    6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied* to myself and A·polʹlos+ for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride,+favoring one against the other. 7 For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive?+ If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it?

    8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings+ without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings.+ 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death,+because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world,+ and to angels and to men. 10 We are fools+ because of Christ, but you are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in dishonor. 11 Down to this very hour we continue to hunger+ and thirst+ and to be poorly clothed* and to be beaten*+ and to be homeless 12 and to toil, working with our own hands.+ When insulted, we bless;+ when persecuted, we patiently endure;+ 13 when slandered, we answer mildly;*+ we have become as the refuse* of the world, the offscouring of all things, until now.

    14 I am writing these things, not to put you to shame, but to admonish you as my beloved children.

  • Phizzy

    It is difficult to argue, maybe even silly, that there ever was a "true church".

    Right after Jesus' death there were several groups who wished to follow him, and started their own myths etc and held their own doctrines.

    Paul himself was one such , and the main influence on the Christianity that survives to our day.

    As to your point in the O.P about no " Great Apostasy" occurring I thoroughly agree, there simply was no one orthodox church to dissent with, and leave.

    There was a developing mainstream group of churches that broadly believed and practiced in the same way by the early 4th century, but still huge disputes about fundamental issues raged on.

    Hence the various Councils as the main church tried to hold sway, and oppose the dissenting views. Poor Arius comes to mind.

    Immense power was suddenly invested in the mainstream church once Constantine gave it the stamp of approval, and they fast became a High Control Mind Control group.

    What followed were centuries of torture, bloodshed and pure evil from this developing church.

    At that point they had without doubt left behind the main teachings of Our Lord , Jesus.

  • cofty

    Thoroughly corrupt den of pedophiles.

  • I believe in overlapping
    I believe in overlapping

    There was never an apostasy.

    Jesus was a man who believed that he was the destine ruler that came from the linage of King David and that he would be the one over throw the Roman rule over Israel. So his message was, the Kingdom of God is at hand, look the King riding on an ass. All he talks about in the Gospels is that he will rule as King and kill his enemies.

    When the Romans heard his message, they killed him for subversive talk against Rome, and according to one gospel, the disciples went back to to their fishing business.

    Some years later a man, (Saul or tarsus) said he had a vision of Jesus and was given a message to preach. Saul became Paul and the Christian message changed from Jesus's message to Paul's message. Christianity is Paul's ideas not Jesus.

    In the meantime many other sects were born that preached Jesus in different ways but eventually the Catholic religion won and became the mainstream Christian religion. For the next thousand plus years, Christianity murdered, raped, and stole from the common man and woman. Eventually some rebelled against the Catholic Church and Protestantism was born.

    Then many others rebelled against Protestantism and more sects were created including the Watchtower. So today we have over 40,000 different Christian Sects.

    But there were NEVER AN APOSTASY from the TRUE RELIGION, because there was NEVER A TRUE RELIGION.

  • Half banana
    Half banana

    Agreed there does not have to be a "true religion" from which an apostacy could occur. There is no such thing as a true religion in the first place, such an impression is surely a subjective one by those brought together under the spell of their own particular group's tradition and being emotionally bonded to it.

    Neither is there evidence for a "great apostacy" with the Roman Church corrupting Christianity. The Romans were polytheist and had a tolerant attitude, they promoted piety, an outward, visible fidelity to the gods which they held was more important than to which one you venerated.

    To the Romans, the various sects making up Christianity were a political annoyance because they were intolerant of others beliefs, they were monotheist, pacifist and had an interior belief system based on faith and obedience to God even when it was at odds with the state. Early Christians even relished persecution and martyrdom which in turn attracted other religious idealists to bolster the movement. It is therefore more of a surprise that the Christian Church, which was drawn from all the older religions especially Mithraism should become the dominant one by the end of the fourth century. The last Mithraic Pope Praetextatus, was offered the position of first Roman Pope in the state role of Ponifex maximus (great bridgemaker) but he declined. Of course the RC church later fabricated their links back to Peter to establish a spiritual pedigree springing from him.

    Christianity was cultic from the start and Constantine for a number of reasons, not the least of which was because his beloved mother Helen was a believer, pressed for a unification of all religious belief under the one Imperial umbrella. He succeeded in creating legal toleration of Christianity in 313, (under Diocletion it had been banned), the Bishops had their heads banged together in 325CE at Council of Nicene (at what is today Isnik Turkey) and unified a universal (catholic) doctrine which was implemented only as late as 380 CE.

    This is a big subject but necessary to study if we are to understand early Christianity. In this regard, the Bible does not help us! Like all cult outpourings it is entirely one sided. We need the voice of the historian archaeologist and sociologist to disentangle myth from the facts.

    Rome declined and fell, but Roman Christianity took on the mantle of secular power and took Europe and Western Asia into centuries of the Dark Ages.

    Yale does a lot of good You tube lectures on this period.


    Our “true religion” is “Pagan” and based upon the natural cycles of the Earth, the struggle for life shared by every living thing and Cosmology.

    We are Taoists.


  • blondie

    "Irrefutable facts" always reminds me how often Rutherford used, "indisputable facts." Read one his old books and it will jump out at you.

  • days of future passed
    days of future passed

    Since religion is a business, no one wants to share the profits and so they whine about "counterfeits"

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