New Approach to Discussing Deity of Christ with JW's

by Sea Breeze 38 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • GodBeliever

    While the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament, the New Testament possesses a "triadic" understanding of God[6] and contains a number of Trinitarian formulas.[7] The doctrine of the Trinity was first formulated among the early Christians and fathers of the Church as early Christians attempted to understand the relationship between Jesus and God in their scriptural documents and prior traditions.[8]The Comma Johanneum in 1 John 5:7, is a disputed text which states: "There are three that testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one." However, this passage is not considered to be part of the genuine text,[a] and most scholars agree that the phrase was a gloss.[11]

    There have been images of Madonna and child; Mary seated in a chair with the child on her lap. Some of these images look very similar to images that we know about from some of the pagan goddesses at the time.

    Isis, a seated woman with a headdress consisting of cow horns encircling a sun-disk. She holds the baby Horus on her lap Isis and Horus, from a statue in the Berlin Museum © Mary, a seated woman with a disk of light encircling her head. She holds the baby Jesus on her lap Madonna Enthroned by Fra Filippo Lippi, mid 1400s ©

    Isis, for example, was seated in such a chair with the infant Horus on her lap in the same way.

    When Christianity was spreading across the Empire, it's clear that it deliberately took images from the pagan world in which it lived and into which it spread and used those images. Old holy wells and shrines were turned into Christian shrines. In Egypt a shrine of Isis was deliberately and self-consciously re-created as a shrine of Mary.

    The survival of ancient communities was intimately dependent upon the fertility of the land, so their religious symbolism and festivals reflected this fundamental bond between humans and the cycles of nature. A number of Catholic holidays and myths parallel the timeline and adopt the symbols of pre-Christian fertility festivals. In Catholicism, Jesus Christ is thought to have been born on December 25, Christmas Day. In pre-Christian Roman religions, the Winter Solstice was a core sacred event that took place on December 25 at the time of the Julian calendar. The best known custom was the Roman festival of Saturnalia, which was celebrated similar to Christmas with drinking, fires, gift-giving, and tree worship.

    The cross is actually an ancient pagan symbol that only later began its association with Christianity some 300 years after Jesus' time during the reign of the pagan Emperor Constantine. The cross symbol was used long before the Christian era, one form of which goes back at least to the ancient Egyptian ankh.

    The naming of the celebration as “Easter” seems to go back to the name of a pre-Christian goddess in England, Eostre, who was celebrated at beginning of spring. The only reference to this goddess comes from the writings of the Venerable Bede, a British monk who lived in the late seventh and early eighth century.

    All so called "christian" practices and doctrines promoted by the catholic church primarily are of roman and other pagan origins. Papacy was nothing but a continuation of the roman empire. The roman empire could not stop the spread of the true christianity and they adopted it in a form that suited them. Probably most people know these facts in the internet era.

  • Vanderhoven7


    here is the completed New Approach focus list

    • "I… have loved you" Jn. 15:9, 12
    • Be "worthy of Me" Mt. 10:37-38
    • "Come to Me" 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
    • "I will give you rest" Mt. 11:28
    • "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" Mt. 11:30
    • I am "greater than the temple" "than Jonah" "than Solomon" Mt. 12:6, 41-42
    • I am "Lord even of the Sabbath" Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
    • Thus He says keep "My commandments" 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
    • "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you" Jn. 15:14
    • "keep My word" Jn. 14:23-24
    • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Mt. 12:30
    • The angels are "His angels" Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands "His angels" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
    • The kingdom is "His kingdom" Mt. 13:41 and He calls it "My kingdom" Lk. 22:30
    • Jesus called it "My church" Mt. 16:18 and believers are "My sheep" Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are "His elect" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
    • Paul is a "vessel of Mine to bear My name" Acts 9:15
    • "all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine" Jn. 17:10
    • "My peace I give" Jn. 14:27 "in Me you may have peace" Jn. 16:33
    • "My joy" should fill you Jn. 15:11
    • "Who do men say that I am?" Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 "who do you say that I am?" Mt. 16:15
    • Receive "Me" Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
    • Heaven and earth will pass away but "My words" will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
    • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
    • "you belong to Christ" Mk. 9:41
    • Hear "My sayings" and do them Lk. 6:47
    • Jesus has "His own glory" Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is "glorified" 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31-32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
    • "He who hears you hears Me" Lk. 10:16
    • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary Lk. 19:37-40
    • Return "to Me" Lk. 22:32
    • Be "My disciple" Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to "be My disciple" Lk. 14:33 "you are My disciples" Jn. 13:35
    • "I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit" Jn. 15:26; 16:7
    • The Holy Spirit "will testify of Me" Jn. 15:26
    • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that "the Scriptures… testify of Me" Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
    • "You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me" Jn. 15:27
    • Paul gives "testimony concerning Me" Acts 22:18; 23:11
    • "the Son gives life to whom He will" Jn. 5:21
    • "seek Me" Jn. 6:26
    • Serve "Me" Jn. 12:26
    • "all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" Jn. 5:23
    • "I am the bread of life," "of heaven," "of God" Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
    • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe in Him Jn. 6:36 [56]
    • Drink "My blood" and eat "My flesh" Jn. 6:53-54, 56
    • "I will raise him up at the last day" Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
    • "The world… hates Me" Jn. 7:7
    • "I am the light of the world" Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
    • "I bear witness of Myself" Jn. 8:13-14, 18
    • "know… Jesus Christ" for "eternal life" Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
    • "the Son makes you free" Jn. 8:36
    • "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" Jn. 8:56; "Before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58
    • Of believers, Christ said, "I know them" Jn. 10:27
    • "I give them eternal life" Jn. 10:28
    • "I am the resurrection and the life" Jn. 11:25
    • I "will draw all peoples to Myself" Jn. 12:32
    • "I will… receive you to Myself" Jn. 14:3
    • Be "Mine" Jn. 14:24
    • "I am the vine" Jn. 15:5
    • "without Me you can do nothing" Jn. 15:5
    • "Because I live, you will live also." Jn. 14:19
    • "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you" Jn. 15:16
    • Those who oppress Christians are "persecuting Me" Acts 9:4-5; 22:7-8; 26:14-15
      "because they have not known… Me" Jn. 16:3
    • The Spirit "will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it" Jn. 16:14
    • "All things that the Father has are Mine" Jn. 16:15
    • "Whatever He [the Father] does, the Son does" Jn. 5:19
    • "the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me" Jn. 16:27
    • "If I will that he remain" Jn. 21:22
    • "I have overcome the world" Jn. 16:33
    • "I am the way" Jn. 14:6
    • "I am… the truth" Jn. 14:6
    • "I am… the life" Jn. 14:6
    • "I will… manifest Myself" Jn. 14:21

    Scores of times Jesus uses the personal pronoun My with words like commandments, sake, words, lambs, sheep, peace, love, joy, voice, name, sayings, kingdom, angels, and church. Three examples powerfully illustrate the point. First, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day..." Secondly, "I know My sheep, and am known by My own." And thirdly, "Assuredly, I say to you... Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." The prophets and John were the messengers; Jesus is the Message, the Way,

  • GodBeliever

    My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.”

    John 10:27‭-‬30

    When Jesus had said this, he raised his eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you, just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him. Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do. Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began. “I revealed your name to those whom you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything you gave me is from you, because the words you gave to me I have given to them, and they accepted them and truly understood that I came from you, and they have believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours, and everything of mine is yours and everything of yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them. “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world. Righteous Father, the world also does not know you, but I know you, and they know that you sent me. I made known to them your name and I will make it known, that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them.”

    John 17

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Thanks for the completed list Vanderhoven7

    The Traditional Passages Showing Christ's Deity are probably worth posting on this thread as well: showing that, like the Father, Jesus is...

    - Called God: John 1:1 with v. 14; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1; Luke 1:16-17
    - From Everlasting: Ps. 90:2 with Micah 5:2
    - Receiving worship: Mat. 2:11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6 (etc., 10x) with Ex. 34:14; Acts 10:25-26 & Rev. 19:10
    - Forgiving/Delegating Power to Forgive: Mat. 6:9, 12 with Jn. 20:23; Luke 5:20; Mark 2:5-11 & 1 Jn. 1:7-9
    - Omniscient: John 10:15; 2:24-25 21:17
    - Omnipresent: Ps. 139:7-10 with Mat. 18:20 & 28:20
    - Omnipotent: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
    - Immutable: Mal. 3:6 with Hebrews 13:8
    - The exact equivalent
    in nature: Heb. 1:3; Phil 2:6 doesn't rob the Father to see Christ as His equal
    in fullness: Col. 2:9 (in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead")
    in glory: Isa. 45:25 with Gal. 6:14 and John 1:14; etc.
    to whom every knee shalll bow: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:10
    to whom every tongue shall confess: Isa. 45:23 with Phil. 2:11 and Rom. 14:10-11
    as the Almighty: Rev. 1:8 with 11-13, 17; 2:8; 5:11-6:1, 21:22-23; & 22:13
    as Creator: Isa. 45:5-7, 18 with John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17
    as Savior: Isa. 45:21 and Luke 1:47 with Titus 3:6; 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:11; 1 John 4:14
    as searcher of hearts: Ps. 139:23-24 with John 2:24-25 & Rev. 2:18-19, 23
    as possessor of the everlasting kingdom: Dan. 7:13-14
    as King of Kings: Rev. 19:16 with Dan. 2:47 and Isa. 33:22
    as Lawgiver: James 4:12
    as Judge: Ps. 9:7-8; 50:6 & 75:7; Isa. 33:22; 66:16; Heb. 12:23 with John 5:22; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom. 2:16; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1, 8
    as Jehovah: Isa. 40:3 with Mat. 3:3; and Isa. 8:13-14 with 1 Pet. 2:7-8; Mat. 21:42; Mk. 12:10.

  • Jeffro
    There's little reason to believe that Jesus said anything attributed to him in the 'gospels', which appeared a generation after his death. In Paul's writings, he seems to know almost nothing about Jesus apart from the 'ransom', almost as though most details about Jesus' life were made up later.
  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze


    Dr. Habermas' lecture at the University of California Santa Barbara outlines the consensus of modern scholarship (including skeptic) today on many facts surrounding Jesus and the gospel accounts, which scholars trace to just months, or even weeks after being crucified.

    Roman governor Pliny the Younger (A.D 111-115): Roman governor Pliny the Younger mentioned in a letter to Emperor Trajan that early Christians would “sing hymns to Christ as to a god.” (Latin, carmenque christo quasi deo; Pliny, Epistles 10.96.7) “…on a stated day they had been accustomed to meet before daybreak and to recite a hymn among themselves to Christ, as though he were a god

    Clearly, early Christians thought that the creator had come down from heaven.

    BTTT - I used to be a regular pioneer and enjoyed defending WT doctrines with people I met at the doors. I thought I was pretty effective. But, looking back - if someone had presented me with all these scriptures as a list at one time, it would have really shocked the Gibbering Body out of me!

  • Rattigan350

    I used to be one that was adamant in arguing against the Trinity. But as Uberwitles said and FFghost said, none of it matters.

  • Jeffro

    Scholarly consensus around the life of Jesus is fairly thin, and the only strong scholarly agreement is that he was baptised by John, was an itinerant preacher of some description, and was executed by the Romans. There is no broad scholarly agreement for the 'resurrection' or any other of the anecdotes about Jesus in the 'gospels'.

    Proponents of stories about Jesus (and other biblical tales) like to cite things like 'the criterion of embarrassment' - the idea that stories that include negative details are more likely to be true because invented stories would (supposedly) paint characters in the best possible light. However, this fails because it is readily apparent that a writer could include such details in their stories for exactly that reason.

  • Rattigan350

    Vanderhoven7 and Sea Breaze, I don't see your point? Those verses don't have anything to do with deity of Christ.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze


    On the bottom of the original post on the first page of this thread, there is a link to a secret recording where this information is presented to a JW elder on a return visit starting at time marker 15:15.

    It all really comes alive when presented in the context of a real conversation with a JW elder. I would have been devastated if I had been that JW. Can't wait for part 2 to be released to see how the encounter ends up..... probably next Sunday.

Share this