New Approach to Discussing Deity of Christ with JW's

by Sea Breeze 38 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Imagine a prophet or an angel talking like Jesus did:

    Christ's Self-focus:

    • "Follow Me" 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
    • Pray and act "in My name" 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24, 26; Acts 9:15
    • "the Holy Spirit" comes "in My name" Jn. 14:26
    • "for My name's sake" leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
    • Believe in the "name of the… Son" and "in the Son" 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and "in Him [Jesus]" 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
    • "believe in Me" 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15-16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
    • You "are sanctified by faith in Me" Acts 26:18
    • Live "in Me" Jn. 11:26
    • "come after Me" Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
    • Abide "in Me" Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 "abide in Me" or else Jn. 15:6 "abide in My love" Jn. 15:9-10
    • "where two or three are gathered" Jesus is "there in the midst of them" Mt. 18:20
    • So too: "I [Jesus, will abide] in you" Jn. 15:4-5
    • "know that I am He" Jn. 8:28 or "if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins" Jn. 8:24
    • Do things "for My sake" Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life "for My sake" 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
    • "I never knew you, depart from Me" Mt. 7:23
    • "I am willing; be cleansed" Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
    • "confess Me" Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
    • Do not deny "Me" 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
    • Do not be "ashamed of Me" Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
    • "love Me" 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23-24, 28
    • Do not reject "Me" Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
    • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Lk. 11:23
    • Love Me "more than" your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]

    Bob Enyart skillfully presents this material
    in a secretly recorded meeting with a Jehovah's Witness Elder on a return visit.

  • Jeffro

    Or a delusion of grandeur. But I’m guessing that isn’t a viable alternative for JWs either.

  • UBERWitless

    What's unclear about "the father is greater than I"?

  • FFGhost

    Arguing about whether "interpretation A" or "interpretation B" of a Biblical verse is the "correct" one is the Socratic ideal of a fool's errand.

  • Jeffro

    Maybe start with the 'holy spirit'...

    JW: The holy spirit is God's active force, his power in action.

    Non-JW: Would Jews and early Christians know about God's power?

    JW: Of course!

    Non-JW: [Acts 19:2]

    JW: Oh... um....

    Non-JW: Paul also said that the holy spirit isn't the same thing as God's power: [2 Corinthians 6:6, 7]

    JW: Um... I have to go.
  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    What's unclear about "the father is greater than I"?

    UBERWitless, that's a socalled "proof scripture" that the WT uses.

    Nothing unclear about that verse you cited. Also perfectly clear is that Jesus possesses "all power in heaven and earth" - Mt. 28: 18

    Also, equally clear is that Jesus said he would resurrect himself while he was dead. - John 10:18

    The problem is that the fundamental assumption of the WT is materialism [sort of]. They deny that personhood is attributed to someone's spirit or soul in the bible. Then, they use this false assumption to harp on some scriptures while denying others.

    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Thess. 5: 23

    Since we are Tri--Partite beings with personhood attributed to each, according to many scriptural proofs, it is easy to see where Jesus at times spoke from his flesh as the son of Mary, and at other times from his spirit [the very essence of God] as the son of God.

    Jesus referred to himself as both the son of God and the son of man. He was both - indivisible essence of God in spirit joined to a fully functioning physical human body.

    Bottom line is that if the bible teaches that Jesus was both God and man, that should be the official Christian position, regardless of whether or not we accept it or if we fully understand it.

  • johnamos
    Also perfectly clear is that Jesus possesses "all power in heaven and earth" - Mt. 28: 18

    I suppose anything can seem (perfectly) clear to a person that only wants to see something how they want to see it.

    You seem to have left off a (perfectly) CLEAR detail:

    [When Jesus came near, he spoke to them. He said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.]

    [Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this CLEARLY does not include the One who put everything under Him. And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.]

    Also, equally clear is that Jesus said he would resurrect himself while he was dead. - John 10:18

    If Jesus 'resurrected himself' then does that mean he killed himself?

    [No one is taking it from me; I lay it down of my own free will. I have the authority to lay it down, and I have the authority to take it back again. This is what my Father has commanded me."]

  • EverApostate

    SO jesus was praying to himself. Seems he had a Serious Problem

  • MeanMrMustard

    I never understood the "read-this-scripture-to-them-and-it-will-set-them-straight" argument. Or the "if-Jesus-isnt-God-then-how-do-explain-what-he-said-here" argument. There is a rationalization for every scripture. There is an explanation for every objection.

    They just disagree with you, in much the same way one might disagree about the meaning of a passage in Moby Dick.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    The Western Bible canon alone has 2-3 narratives about the deity of Jesus. There were multiple branches of Christianity even early on (what Paul alluded to when he said there were followers of Barnabas, Peter and himself) that each had a different set of beliefs.

    If we include all early Christian writings that were at one point claimed to be inspired, then you can create at least a dozen different outcomes, based on traditional Greek or Roman epics or even African origins or more Aristotelian ideas.

    With the Bible, you can prove all different ideas by choosing the collection and order of scripture you use, hence the JWs are right (as they base their narrative similar to the Unitarian Protestant movement) whereas you can choose Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or Ethiopian Orthodox and get a different set of results.

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