The Second Coming of Christ

by maccauk 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Fisherman

  This isn't your thread. You don't make the rules

  @ DJ I never said it was my thread and I am not making rules and I cannot stop you from posting about why you like peanut butter sandwiches, but you addressed your related posts to me and I was only explaining my question as it relates to this Topic in my posts to you; anyway, you have diverted the Topic and have not answered my question, and haven't shown how peanut butter has any relevance to this discussion. Nothing wrong with peanut butter sandwiches if that is what you like to talk about.
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  David_Jay

  I never diverted from the subject of the Second Coming. Go back over my posts and ask anyone here if I have been diverting from the subject.

  As for you not making rules, you wrote:

  If you can't think in those terms, you should recuse yourself from trying to answer my question.

  Not only did you set rules for how you wanted me to write, you here admit, in your own words, that I indeed was offering an answer.

  The only problem is that you don't like the answer I gave, not that I didn't give an answer.

  And setting terms or parameters for answers is setting "rules."

  You, Fisherman, are lying. I don't appreciate liars.

  Now, back to the theme. I won't spend another moment discussing anything that doesn't have to with the subject matter, like Fisherman's Watchtower brand peanut butter sandwiches.
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  Fisherman

  DJ, you still have not shown relevance in your related posts directed at me.
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  David_Jay

  Fisherman,

  I answered your question. These texts are originally Marcan.

  For those unaware what happened earlier in this thread, Fisherman's first post involved a quote from Jesus' conversation with the Pharisees regarding the nature of the Kingdom of God. It is found at Luke 17:20-37. Note that Fisherman only quoted verses 29-31 and offered no citations or contextual background.

  All mainstream textual scholars agree that Luke added verses 22-32 into the conversation from Marcan sources. To illustrate.

  According to the 100 plus scholars who worked on the official United States Catholic Bible, the NABRE, the footnote to these verses state:

  Luke has also appended further traditional sayings of Jesus about the unpredictable suddenness of the day of the Son of Man, and assures his readers that in spite of the delay of that day..., it will bring judgment unexpectedly on those who do not continue to be vigilant.--Italics added.

  It isn't that scholars aren't saying that Jesus never said these things, but that Jesus never made this prediction at this time. This is a Lucan addition made to condemn the Pharisees, and by extension the Jews due to this anti-Jewish sentiment the early Church had toward their Hebrew brethren.

  Luke was trying to state that Jesus was predicting judgments specifically upon the non-Christian Jews, but as scholars point out, the shift in wording is clearly lifted from Marcan vocabulary. Luke was a Greek and wrote very differently.
  

  I stated all this already, but used different sources. The conclusions are still the same. I have definitely stayed in point and definitely replied to your post.
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  maccauk

  the new testament is the historical testimony of what happened up to 70ad
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  David_Jay

  And lastly, Fisherman, if I wanted to, there would have been a much easier way for me, a Jewish man, to have given you an answer.

  Jews, as you know, don't accept Jesus as Messiah. We don't hold him as a prophet. We do not view the Gospels of any of the Christian Scriptures as inspired. So, instead of going out of my way to be objective and give an academic answer I could have merely said:

  "Jesus is not the Messiah or a prophet, so there is no reason to believe what he said."

  I didn't. I left my personal beliefs out of things. I merely cited what Christian scholars teach. They hold Jesus as Messiah, as a prophet, as someone who foretold many things, but they don't see things as Jehovah's Witnesses do. They are not naive. Still they remain faithful without having to have things play out so black-and-white as you seem to demand. That, to me, is real faithfulness. I admire that in them.

  You, on the other hand, said that if it wasn't as prophetic as you excepted that you might as well toss it away. That shows how shallow you are about Jesus. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus has to fit your view of him or he goes into the garbage too. Interesting.

  But again, the simplest answer from me could have been to abandon it all because Jesus isn't Messiah. But notice, I didn't do that. For you see, I can be objective. I can forget what I believe, leave my opinion and convictions behind and give replies that are fair and informative, even if they don't reflect my personal belief. To me the truth matters, even if I don't subscribe to it.

  Now, I'm tired of talking to you. A great thing about forums is I can move on and ignore you, which is what I am doing at the moment. I'm sure you haven't the self-control to not reply back and do the same.
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  Fisherman

  @DJ

  Given: NT= Prophecy

  Solve for:

  1. Answer my question

  2. 2nd Coming. ( It is elementary that fulfillment is based on prophecy.
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  EverApostate

  David_Jay . Jesus isn't Messiah

  Do you really believe there were Messiahs in the past AND /OR would appear in future.
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  maccauk

  history ended Jesus is the New Israel the kingdom of God is here on earth there is no distinction between any man or tribe or nation its spiritual which all will enter into
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  David_Jay

  EverApostate wrote:

  Do you [Jews] believe there were Messiahs in the past AND /OR would appear in future [?]

  Good question, EverApostate.

  First, Jews don't "believe in" things like Christians do. We don't have tenets of faith or doctrines that we are required to believe in to be Jews. Judaism is a religion of practice, not of belief. One is Jew by birth, by blood. Some can convert to become a member of the tribe, but there is no assent to a creed.

  Next, the word "messiah" means someone who has been "anointed" or been publicly appointed to act in a certain office of oversight. Sometimes this office was as a priest in the Temple. Most of the time, the word "messiah" referred to the person ruiling as king. Every king that ruled in Israel while we still used the monarchy system of government in Israel was a "messiah."

  But will there be a "promised Messiah" as Judaism speaks of in the Gemara and other texts that came after the Hebrew Bible was completed, a teaching picked up by the followers of Jesus of Nazareth who are known as Christians?

  Some Jews hold that there will be a literal Messiah or set of Messiah figures in the future, a monarch or a monarch and a priest, who will restore Israel to its glory days. But other Jews, like myself, feel that no one in Israel or the world would ever allow a king or any other type of monarch to rule them. The day of monarchies are long past gone. People won't allow themselves to be ruled by kings and queens anymore. Even the age of denominational divides and rabbinical authorities has come to an end in Judaism. We live in a post-denominational, post-rabbinal Jewish world. How can we possibly expect to see a literal monarch Messiah come and redeem Israel?

  So many Jews see the Messiah as a personifaction of a hope, of a day when humanity will conquer war, sickness, poverty, and all of its worst enemies. We, all of humanity, will rule over all that is evil and bring redemption and peace to our world. We have the ability. We have been created to evolve into such a species. The Jewish principle of Tikkun Olam and the hope of Olam Ha Ba point to this.