An example of inconsistency in Watchtower literalism....ABSTAIN FROM BLOOD

by logansrun 16 Replies latest jw friends

  • JT
    JT

    just my two

    in my view i believe that the orginal position that the wt took, while we may not agree with it was at least able to be backed up by a good solid biblical interpetation of thier position=

    at one time the wt taught that by means of that scripture in acts TO ABSTAIN from blood covered ALL BLOOD AND BLOOD FRACTIONS

    while we may not agree at least the avg jw could turn to the bible and ref this text which does say ABSTAIN FROM BLOOD-

    IN MY VIEW and based on many conversations with HLC members about this issue the real problem arises when they decided to switch from ALL BLOOD/FRACTIONS to the

    two and separate list

    some things you could take and other things you can't

    allow me to give you an example of what happened to one HLC member-

    they were sitting in the hospital with a number of Drs brain and heart suregons, etc and the hospital director

    so here you had these 3 guys 1. a Metro train driver, one a retired federal employee, and one a pioneer with some little flunky cleaning biz , but he was a Sub CO ---

    anyway my boy says------ they were sitting at this big old A$$ conference table trying to use all these big medical terms, hemoglobin, factor XYZ, etc and he could tell that these Drs were like: "DO THEY KNOW WHAT THE HE!! THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT" SMILE

    SO after he finished this one heart dr said something to the effect:

    " VERY INTERESTING" then he reached under the table and pulled a big old KING JAMES BIBLE and slid it across the table to my boy and asked him:

    "Could you show us in Scripture, where you come up with a list of APPROVED AND DISSAPPROVED components of Blood?"

    at that point he said he felt like he had just died a 1000's deaths-

    so while i don't agree at all with thier orginal positions AT LEAST, AT LEAST THEY COULD turn to the bible and show you why they have NOTHING TO DO WITH BLOOD

    but when they came up with that GOOFY LIST,. it just showed how foolish they really were

    as he put it, he realized he could not say CAUSE THE SOCIETY SAYS SO- and he just stumbled his way thru some 50Cent excuse

    hey you got to love it

  • MegaDude
    MegaDude

    The so-called clear admonition to abstain from blood the JWs quote in Acts 15:29 falls apart when you read the previous scripture in the same book and chapter. Paul, who didn't believe in any of the old Jewish law, explains why he says to abstain from blood.

    NIV Acts 15:20 - 21: "Instead, we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." HERE IS THE KICKER. WHY DOES PAUL SAYS THIS? Vs. 21 continues: "For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

    In other words, Paul didn't want to the Gentile Christians to stumble Jewish converts. Not that Christians were under some antequated Jewish dietary law from the days of Moses, but simply not to stumble the Jews. Paul makes clear in other parts of the Bible he didn't have a problem with meat sacrificed to idols. Idols meant nothing to him. However, he said he wouldn't even eat meat if it stumbled a brother.

    The Watchtower by now knows their stand on blood is totally bogus. That's why they allow so many different types of products with blood in them. They are trying to slowly change the doctrine so not to upset their followers' belief in them.

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan
    " VERY INTERESTING" then he reached under the table and pulled a big old KING JAMES BIBLE and slid it across the table to my boy and asked him:

    "Could you show us in Scripture, where you come up with a list of APPROVED AND DISSAPPROVED components of Blood?"

    at that point he said he felt like he had just died a 1000's deaths-

    so while i don't agree at all with thier orginal positions AT LEAST, AT LEAST THEY COULD turn to the bible and show you why they have NOTHING TO DO WITH BLOOD

    but when they came up with that GOOFY LIST,. it just showed how foolish they really were

    as he put it, he realized he could not say CAUSE THE SOCIETY SAYS SO- and he just stumbled his way thru some 50Cent excuse

    Is Mr. 50Cent excuse still a dub?

    I think the "which component" angle is the most solid one to take when this subject comes up with JW's. Just which part of the blood is "sacred" to Jerhover? And how did they reach this conclusion? The same way they reached the conclusion that 1975 was clearly a marked year in scripture. LOL

    Not that it's even worth arguing about it's so ridiculous.

  • JT
    JT
    Is Mr. 50Cent excuse still a dub?

    the last i heard he was completely inactive, i have tried to reach him, but we moved from VA to MD

    I think the "which component" angle is the most solid one to take when this subject comes up with JW's. Just which part of the blood is "sacred" to Jerhover? And how did they reach this conclusion?

    I agree and it is the most powerful argument to make- i got a jw in a group of folks at work and asked this same question and SAD TO SAY everyone at the table NONJW got it, BUT THE POOR JW

    and they could all see just how foolish this dogma is

    Not that it's even worth arguing about it's so ridiculous.

    excellent point and that is why i didn't even argue i just presented the question, the most powerful part is when this is done IN FRONT OF NON-JW

    the jw literally starts having a stroke

  • TD
    TD

    Bradley,

    Am I understanding you correctly if I were to say that if the JWs literally apply the command to 'abstain from blood' they would need to not even touch blood or have anything whatsoever to do with it -- that is the object, blood, would be taboo?

    Not exactly. The problem is even more fundamental than this. I'm saying that quoting the phrase ?abstain from blood? as an independent construction conveys the idea of a simple and direct command, but what the JW's are doing here is ungrammatical. The incomplete predicate "Abstain from blood" cannot legitmately be invoked apart from the context that completes it. Therefore it's not a question of whether the phrase is applied literally or not. The phrase can't stand on its own in the first place --- End of story.

    Complete sentences require a transition of action between subject and object. "Abstain" is intransitive and can neither take a direct object nor transfer action from subject to object. What is required is a finite verb or verb phrase. Sometimes though, when an "Abstain from....." construction is used, a finite verb is missing and must be supplied by the reader based upon the context. English is such an intuitve language with so much taken for granted that we usually do this without even thinking.

    Consider the following two simple examples:

    ?Her obstetrician said, ?Pregnant women should abstain from alcohol.??

    "His dermatologist said, ?Persons with sensitive skin should abstain from alcohol.??

    Even though the phrase ?abstain from alcohol? appears in both of these sentences, it does not negate the same action in both. While we would understand the former to be a reference to drinking alcoholic beverages, we would understand the latter to be a reference to the topical application of alcohol. Our source for the finite verbs "Drink" and "Apply" which bridge the gap between subject and object and complete the thought is the context itself.

    Has the woman been told that she should not apply cosmetics containing alcohol to her skin? In context, the answer is "No." That's not what her obstetrician is talking about. Has the man been told that he should not drink alcoholic beverages? In context, the answer is also "No." That's not what his dermatologist is talking about.

    The situation is the same with JW?s and blood. Were Christians told that they must not use blood for the basic set of functions for which it was created? (Circulating in your arteries and veins.) In context, the answer is "No." That's not what the Jerusalem council was talking about. The context of the discussion was whether Gentile converts to Christianity should be circumcised and follow the Law. Therefore the eating or drinking of blood as forbidden in the Law is unquestionably the Biblical context of this reference.

    Literal translations of the Bible are truest to the original text, but their downfall lies in the fact that the end result is sometimes awkward, incomplete, or poorly constructed English. Consider for example how the following dynamic equivalent and paraphrased translations complete the thought:

    "eat no food that has been offered to idols; eat no blood; eat no animal that has been strangled; and keep yourselves from immorality."

    Today's English Version

    "avoid what has been sacrificed to idols, tasting blood, eating the meat of what has been strangled and sexual immorality."

    Phillip's Modern English

    "You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or eating the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality."

    New Living Translation

    "abstain from eating food offered to idols and from unbled meat of strangled animals and of course from fornication."

    The Living Bible

    "Do only what is necessary by keeping away from food sacrificed to false gods, from eating bloody meat, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual sins."

    God's Word Bible

    ?But you should not eat anything offered to idols. You should not eat any meat that still has the blood in it or any meat of any animal that has been strangled. You must also not commit any terrible sexual sins."

    Contemporary English Version

    "That you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from [tasting] blood and from [eating the meat of animals] that have been strangled and from sexual impurity."

    The Amplified Bible

    "You are to keep away from everything that has been given to gods. Do not eat blood or meat from animals that have been killed in ways against the Law. Keep away from sex sins"

    New Life Version

    "You must not eat food that has been given to idols. You must not eat the meat of animals that are killed by choking. You must not taste blood. You must not commit adultery. If you keep away from these things, you will do well. Goodbye."

    The Bible in Worldwide English

    Contextually supported interpolations such as these are the only ones that anyone may legitimately make.

    Tom

  • eby
    eby

    I agree with Megadude that the Watchtower knows their stand on blood is bogus. But are you aware that they offer another explanation for Acts 15:21 concerning Moses being preached and read?

    *** g76 3/8 26-8 'Abstain from Blood'-for How Long? ***

    Observe that James did not say that ?the law of Moses is read every sabbath.? He said, ?Moses . . . is read aloud. . . on every sabbath.? (Acts 15:21) What is the difference? Moses was famous for having written the Pentateuch or Torah, the first five books of the Bible. These books certainly do set forth the Law. But they contain much more. Moses? writings also contain a record of God?s dealings and expressed views that predate the Law.?Compare Mark 12:26 and Exodus 3:2, 6.

    This was an important point to bear in mind in connection with the Christian congregation. Even though God was no longer requiring observance of the Mosaic Law code, there were earlier indications of his will that he expected to be upheld by any human serving him. So, if some, whether Jews or Jewish Christians, had great regard for Moses? writings, they should be able to see the need for true worshipers to abstain from ?these necessary things? that came before the Law and continued after it ended.

    God?s expressed will regarding blood is an example. Many centuries before he gave the law through Moses, God told Noah to abstain from blood. In giving humans permission to eat flesh Jehovah stated plainly: ?Only flesh with its soul?its blood?you must not eat.? That ruled out eating meat from an animal that was strangled to keep its blood in the flesh. It also ruled out eating or drinking blood. (Gen. 9:3, 4) Later, God stated his will about blood in the law given to the Israelites. (Lev. 17:11-14; Deut. 12:23) Yet, when the Law was fulfilled and no longer binding on true worshipers, the prohibition in Genesis 9:3, 4 remained. And it had not been given just to Israel, but through Noah, the progenitor of the human race, to all mankind.

    Consequently, the weekly reading of ?Moses,? which would include Genesis 9:3, 4, would do more than present what just the Mosaic law for Jews said about blood. It would also show that abstaining from blood and things strangled was still necessary for all persons wanting God?s approval. That would be plain to Jews in their synagogues. It would be plain to Hebrew Christians who were well acquainted with what was read in the synagogues. And it would be plain to any Gentiles who, by contact with Jews or Christians, came to know of the basic precepts set forth in God?s Word.

    *** bq 10-12 Jehovah's Witnesses and the Question of Blood *** So, does the divine prohibition against blood apply to Christians?

    During the discussion Jesus? half brother James brought to the council?s attention certain other essential things that he deemed important to include in their decision, namely, ?to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.? (Acts 15:19-21) He referred back to the writings of Moses, which reveal that even before the Law was given, God had disapproved of immoral sex relations, idolatry and the eating of blood, which would include eating the flesh of strangled animals containing blood.?Genesis 9:3, 4; 19:1-25; 34:31; 35:2-4.

    Concerning that Christian decree, Professor Walther Zimmerli, of the University of Göttingen, Germany, commented:

    ?The first Judeo-Christian congregation in the decision reported on in Acts 15 made a distinction between the Law given to Israel through Moses and the command given [through] Noah to all the world.??Zürcher Bibelkommentare. 6

    6. Zürcher Bibelkommentare 1. Mose 1-11 (1967), p. 330

    But as Meg said:

    Paul makes clear in other parts of the Bible he didn't have a problem with meat sacrificed to idols. Idols meant nothing to him. However, he said he wouldn't even eat meat if it stumbled a brother
    .

    FYI,

    eby

  • VeniceIT
    VeniceIT

    This is a great thread, I?ve really enjoyed all the posts so far. It seems so crazy when you look at it from outside the org. you know. Another point I like is:

    Acts 15:29 ?to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood??

    Well if you do a cross reference on ?keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols? you go to I Cor 8. Where the entire chapter is explaining how that is really only a conscious matter as long as you don?t stumble someone else??..

    Sooooo wouldn?t that also apply to the rest of that verse???? the same word ?Abstain? is used??????

    Anyway another point I like is if you do a cross reference for the ?Food

    PS just an extra thought if Jesus was giving ALL power and authority like he says in Matt 28:18-20, then what was left to give him in 1914????????

    Mat 28:18-20 reads :

    "And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU".

    Things that make you go hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!

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