Jw's go to the door of a biblical scholar to preach the Bible.

by paradisebeauty 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I think they do not bad.

    Not many scholars would agree with Sir Anthony Buzzard against Jesus' pre-existence in the NT. Jimmy Dunn maybe but not many others.

    I think you can argue Hebrews 1 either way on angels . Plus there's Gal 4:14 to contend with. Plus an argument to be made for Michael especially in the early church.

    An argument can be made against his reading of Rev 5:10 over what epi means.

    The JWs lose their way when talking about the churches Jesus is addressing in Revelation.

    Buzzard is enjoying it all a bit too much. I quite like the brother and sister.

  • sparrowdown
    sparrowdown

    Where the hell do JWs get off thinking they can go to people's doors and teach them anything.

  • Landy
    Landy
    Don't know who he is but he's certainly in with a shout as the most irritating bloke on the planet.
  • Beth Sarim
    Beth Sarim
    sparrowdown an hour ago

    **Where the hell do JWs get off thinking they can go to people's doors and teach them anything**

    Good point!!!

  • Pete Zahut
    Pete Zahut

    To me as I watched this video, it struck me that both parties (esp the old guy) were quite impressed with how much they knew about the Bible and how well they could cobble together an argument using connect the dot scriptures.

    To me, the further they went along, the more they began to sound like a group of nerds discussing the intricacies of Star Trek or The Lord of The Rings trilogy as if these writings were based in reality.

  • freeman
    freeman

    The JW couple reminds me of myself many years ago, zealous and clueless and thinking they really knew something. Then, directly walking into a theological mine field.

    The embarrassingly shallow scholarship of the Dark Tower is on full display. I know this man's work, and I can tell you he could have beat them up a lot more then he did, but as I said he is a pretty nice guy. Of course he did have a bit of fun with them, didn't he. So glad he shared the recording :-)

    Freeman

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    freeman:

    There are at least two persons that existed before time even began. John 1:1

    In the beginning the Word was. In the Greek en arche en ho logos it is saying that before time began, already existing was the Word. Never mind the God, “a god” nonsense of the witnesses, the Word who they openly acknowledge is the pre-human Jesus, has no beginning, lives in eternity, before time even began.

    While I don't believe in the JW interpretation of things I must say that John 1:1 does not contradict an Arian position. It says that the Word was in the beginning not before it. If Jesus was created and created before the angels then his creation would have marked the beginning of time. Before his creation God would have been living in timelessness or eternity.

  • steve2
    steve2

    I have to say that the JWs conducted themselves well. I though the woman in particular was most gracious, readily conceding she had used incorrect terms or phrases.

    This scholar is of course in the business of Bible scholarship and undoubtedly could run rings around more conventional Christians. So?

    Also, good on the JWs for allowing it to be video-taped. Good sports indeed.

    The scholar seems to be having a whale of a time gleefully rebuting,, correcting and "teaching" them. At times he holds back, as if aware he could floor them if he wanted to.

    He is in his element. But many of the resulting exchanges were more cerebral than riveting and have a scholastically anti-climactic feel.

  • freeman
    freeman

    Hi VI,

    Perhaps I'm not explaining it clearly so I will try again.

    In the Greek construct of the sentence, not the English construct, the Word already existed BEFORE the beginning.

    I'm not sure if the Greek fonts will post correctly but let me try In Greek:

    Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεός ἦν ὁ λόγος

    Or transliterated making it easier to read in English it reads:


    En archē ēn ho Lógos, kai ho Lógos ēn pros ton Theón, kai Theós ēn ho Lógos.

    In the first part which is often called the (a) clause ending at the the word “logos” means he (the logos) is already existing with no beginning, no starting point. That eliminates the Word from being part of the creation, and therefor the Arian position bites the dust in the very first clause of John 1:1, yes it's that simple.

    Now I am NOT talking about a particular or private belief that I may hold, I am trying to explain that in Koine or common Greek, the form of Greek John 1:1 is written in, it says the Word already existed ( ēn ho Lógos was i.e. past tense) even before time began (En archē).

    No there is no ambiguity, there is no having a different point of view on this, the Greek is the Greek, this is science, yes it's that precise, Koine Greek follows strict rules and according to the Greek, the Word always existed, even before time started.

    And speaking of science, as an aside, isn't it interesting that in the very same sentence (first part of John 1:1) it says that time itself had a definite starting point. Who knew that the Bible espouses one of the key elements of the Big Bang Theory. Very cool!

    Not sure if I made it any clearer but I gave it my best shot.

    Freeman

  • Clambake
    Clambake

    I think the old guy really wanted to say alot more than he actually did.

    Jehovah witness theology is essential a belief you are eternally separated from god and only though your works and obidence to the G7 can you be saved. It's actually quite depressing.

    It's just bizarre to me more jws didn't understand the significance of the new understanding of the fds. It's like they said fuck it, we're a cult and don't care who knows.

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