Faithful Slave Appointment: What are the assumptions of Watchtower Matthew 24:45-47 Eschatology?

by Vanderhoven7 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Earnest

  At the time of the appointment of the faithful slave in 1919 it was understood to include all anointed Christians, and at that time all Christians were anointed. So it's a bit of nonsense to say that the faithful slave was appointed at Watchtower Headquarters. Or to say it included Watchtower directors as it included everyone. Or to speak of the appointment being passed on to subsequent Watchtower directors.

  It was only in 2012 that there was a change in understanding that the faithful slave only referred to the Governing Body collectively (not individually).

  
  
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  slimboyfat

  When I was young in the 1980s the meanings of the words “generation”, “anointed” and “faithful slave” were pretty straight forward and easily explained. Now each of those terms is liable to induce a headache if I dwell on the official explanations too long.
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  Konagirl

  Thanks Vanderhoven, but I don't think I can agree that it is a parody. I doubt Jesus meant it to be humorous, since he wept over his own people’s blindness. A warning parable, yes. Psalm 78:2; Mark 4:34

  It’s interesting that the meaning of both Ben Hinnom, Hebrew for Gehenna, and Gehenna in Greek refer to “son of wailing, of muffled groaning”/”valley of muffled groaning”. The final judgment of condemnation against the wicked takes place in and affects the heart, I believe, since “for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart” and directs our actions toward others. I personally believe it is there, where the weeping and gnashing of teeth happens, when one’s heart is on fire, facing retribution for one’s wickedness practiced against others. Luke 6:45; Jer 17:9-10
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  Ding

  I like Don Cameron's approach in Captives of a Concept.

  The WT has now abandoned more than 90% of what it taught from 1914-1919, so if Jesus inspected what it was teaching back then he would have found it to be at least 90% falsehood rather than truth.

  The latest book published before 1919 was The Finished Mystery, which is an absolute embarrassment -- get a copy and read it. (Michael is the Pope, Leviathan is the locomotive, Abaddon is "a bad one sure enough" [comment on Rev. 9:11], etc.)

  Ray Franz summed it up well when he wrote, "It would be an insult to Jesus Christ to say that he selected this organization on the basis of what it was teaching as of 1919.” (In Search of Christian Freedom, p. 145)
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  Rattigan350

  Sea Breaze "Jesus talks about hell more than he talks about heaven, and describes it more vividly. There’s no denying that Jesus knew, believed, and warned against the absolute reality of hell."

  People need to stop going by what people said.

  The problem here is that people don't ask the right questions. They don't ask questions at all. Where is the skepticism.

  Why didn't it come into play at Adam? They caused humanity to suffer. But all they got was sent to the dust.
  

  No mention of torment from Adam to Jesus.

  It sounds like hellfire started when Jesus spoke of it.

  The problem is that Jesus changed nothing. He termed dead people as sleeping.

  Rich man and Lazarus had the rich man in torments becuase he received good things in his lifetime.

  I thought torments was for not believing in Jesus. But that was not stated.

  If people went to torments, Amos 3:7 would apply "For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing

  Unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets."

  It would needed to be explained and warned clearly.

  Jesus didn't talk about hell more than heaven. Then the problem of the KJV uses gehenna for hell when it is only hades.

  However, Jesus said he is the resurrection and the life. He gave expressions that may look like torments but they are just expressions. Jesus only fulfilled the atonement. He did not create punishments.
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  Rattigan350

  Vanderhoven said "Hades fire was the teaching of the Pharisees"

  We don't know what the pharisees taught.

  We know that the whole concept of hell/hades fire or any kind of torment after death is ridiculous.

  What is there to burn? The dead are dead. Nothing lives on.
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  Rattigan350

  They use Matt 24:45-47 simply because it gives them some authority over the people and teachings..

  It does not require arguing over 1914 or 1919.

  They used 1919 because that is when the conventions began to where they started the preaching to illustrate that they were not bound by Babylon.

  The only reason that the FDS is of relevance to you all and them is because Jesus made a reference to it. People have this belief that if Jesus says so, then we have to listen.

  From 1879 to 1974 the governing body was they board of directors. Then it was expanded and made separate, then made more separate in 2000. How the FDS was defined did not change where the teachings came from or authority. It just was done to appease people.
  
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  Vanderhoven7

  @Konagirl

  That Jesus did employ satire at times is quite evident in the gospels. Examples of this include, Matthew 9:13, where Jesus exempts the Pharisees from His redemptive plan because He only came for sinners, not “the righteous” and again in Luke 13:13 where Jesus ironically expresses that prophets cannot possibly perish anywhere except in Jerusalem. Also in Matthew 22:23-33, Jesus silences the Sadducees on the question of the resurrection by expanding upon the nature of angels (verse 30). I don’t think for a moment that Jesus was seriously trying to convince the Sadducees of something they did not believe in by elaborating upon something else they equally dismissed as nonexistent.

  In order to establish that the literary form of Lazarus and the Rich Man is satire, or more particularly, a parody, there must be clear evidence that:

  a. A common or "well known story line is being imitated".

  b. irony is employed; that the story’s outcome is changed such that there is clear “incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the expected result”

  c. the unexpected results "highlight human stupidity" or corruption.

  d. "a comic end is served", the purpose of which is to cause listeners "to detach sympathies from certain people (groups), to judge their actions and to see the absurdity in their behavior…
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  Sea Breeze

  People need to stop going by what people [Jesus] said.
  The problem here is that people don't ask the right questions. They don't ask questions at all. Where is the skepticism.

  That is just shocking to Christians Ratttigan. The only thing that the first Christians had to go on was the fact that a dead man walked out of a tomb after having claimed that he would raise himself from the dead.... while he was still dead.

  At that point, a decision had to be made. Believe him or not. At unbelievable personal sacrifice, the first Christians decided to believe Jesus because of the resurrection. Christians are simply unwilling to not believe Jesus because he himself said that believing him was the first step in being granted a pardon and enjoying life forever.
  
  I am just not willing to risk such a prospect of rejection, especially when the alternative is believing that Jesus mislead people for 1800 years until a miracle wheat salesman and slanderer with a 7th grade education could "correct" Jesus words.

  Then the problem of the KJV uses gehenna for hell when it is only hades.

  People go to more than one place when they die because they are a tripartite being - soul, body and spirit. The KJV got it right.
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  Vanderhoven7

  @Rattigan

  That the view of hell depicted in Luke 16 was an integral part of first century Pharisaic tradition is nowhere more clearly delineated than in the following excerpt attributed to Josephus, (himself a Pharisee) to explain the Jewish concept of Hades to the Greeks.

  "Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region...allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to everyone's behavior and manners... while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined. For there is one decent into this region...the just are guided to the right hand and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor any briers there; but the countenance of the Fathers and of the just, which they see always smiles upon them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.

  But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence... they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it. "

  The Works of Flavius Josephus, William Whiston, A.M., Translator. Hartford Conn. The S.S. Scranton Co., 1900, pp. 901-902

  
  

  BTW, Abraham's Bosom is not found in the Hebrew Scriptures. It was invented in the intertestamental period to separate the just from the unjust in Sheol.