First Proper Chat With the JWs in Almost 11 Years

by passwordprotected 19 Replies latest jw experiences

  • redvip2000
    redvip2000

    Great read. I really like to read about experiences with speaking to JWs.

    In my experience of talking to them when they come over, they have a narrow scope for a basis of conversation.

    They first assume that you believe in God, and next they assume that you believe the bible is true. From that starting point, their training is really geared around convincing you their interpretation is better, as opposed to other christian sects. It's always been like that since the beginning of the Washtowell.

    The moment you take it a step back, and claim are you not convinced God exists and that you don't believe the bible is the word of God, their entire baseline is demolished. All of sudden, reading verses from the bible is pointless, since you don't believe in it. What to do? They usually look completely disarmed, perhaps making a tepid argument that revolves around "how did everything come to exist", or "who created everything", as if that helps them in any way.

    I usually ask ... "Why do you think the Bible is true?", which really gives them a hard time. Typically they resort to bible prophecies which easily can be made to look silly, when you point how vague they are

  • steve2
    steve2

    Mutual respect throughout the exchange. It could have turned negative very quickly but your astute mindedness paved the way for a helpful exchange. I like that you did not zero in on their specific beliefs as JWs but centred the exchange around beliefs shared by most Christian believers. They were less defensive and would even concede your points.

    I've no doubt that these two JWs will remember the exchange and may even have thought far more deeply on the issues that came up. Well done!

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Passwordprotected, were you once here under the name "Yerusalyim"?

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    @Nathan: no, I've always been PasswordProtected since day 1.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Good to see you, and to hear about the JW encounter. I had a similar such encounter at the door about 2008 with JWs I didn’t recognise. I predicted to them that JWs would one day accept gay people (not sure how that topic came up) but that hasn’t panned out, so far at least.

    I can’t say I’m terribly impressed with the “atheists just believe in one less God” argument. Because it seems to me that the question of whether their is a God at all is a different kind of question from whether any particular tradition about God is correct.

    To make an analogy, say there is a flower out of sight in the garden and there is a dispute about what colour it is. Some people think it’s blue, or red, or yellow, or whatever. Then somebody says they think the flower doesn’t have a colour at all. It is without colour. The others are confused and say it doesn’t make sense, or at least requires some sort of explanation. But the person advocating the flower with no colour insists it makes perfect sense. In fact, he says, the no-colour flower should be the default position until there is more evidence bearing on the situation. Everyone else, he points out, disbelieves in all the other colours the flower could be, except the one colour they believe in. He just goes one colour further!

    Maybe it is possible for a flower to exist without colour. But at the very least it requires some explanation, and it’s clearly a different kind of claim than the dispute among others over what colour the flower is. The step between arguing that the flower is one colour rather than another, and the claim that the flower has no colour, clearly represents different sorts of disputes, and is not properly elided as being on the same spectrum of possibilities.

    Saying that the universe could exist without a ground of being, or unmoved mover, or God, is in a different category from the claim that a particular historical tradition about God is true or false. Someone who maintains that the universe can exist without any God at all is saying something far more profound about the world and its instrinsic nature than that he simply fails to believe in one extra historical traditional about God. In that sense the “atheists believe in one less God” argument actually sells atheism short, because it understates the significance and depth of the issues involved in subscribing to either a world with or without God.

  • Dagney
    Dagney

    Hi password! Well done.

    I too agree, if at all possible, to engage as you have done just to leave a thought they might not be able to get out of their minds.

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    I can’t say I’m terribly impressed with the “atheists just believe in one less God” argument. Because it seems to me that the question of whether their is a God at all is a different kind of question from whether any particular tradition about God is correct.


    If a religious person puts forward the idea that a personal relationship with their god of choice is something to seek for, or a person's life depends on it, then I think it's perfectly reasonable to use the "one less god" argument. Especially in the context of the god you believe in oftentimes being due to an accident of birth.

    Why not believe in Thor or Vishnu and have a personal relationship with them for salvation?

    I don't believe in those gods and I also don't believe in the Jehovah's Witness or evangelical Abrahamic god. Therefore I believe in one less god than they do.

  • pale.emperor
    pale.emperor

    I think you handled that perfectly.

    I like to think i'd take the same approach. On the (very) rare occasion I speak to a JW on the cards I pretend I dont know anything about their religion.

    So, is Jehovah like, your prophet?

    Do you have a pope?

    What book do you use?

    Then casually mention my former religion, Scientology, making my family shun me for simply disagreeing with David Miscavige.

  • dozy
    dozy

    Interesting conversation that you had there.

    Just one point I am slightly puzzled over - your assertion to the JWs that Jesus "probably didn't exist".

    Did you mean by that that the Jesus depicted in the bible as a son of God , miracle worker etc didn't exist ( I guess most of us would agree with that. ) Nevertheless , although I am no longer religious & certainly don't believe in the "Jesus" that christian religions espose , my understanding had always been that historians generally are in agreement that there is a historic individual behind the description.

    Wikipedia - "Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed historically"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus




  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected
    Just one point I am slightly puzzled over - your assertion to the JWs that Jesus "probably didn't exist".

    Firstly, I wasn’t exactly prepared for my conversation with them on Saturday morning. Secondly, I haven’t researched anything to do with Christianity or the historicity of Jesus in many years.

    However, whether most modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed historically, that could mean some dude called Jesus was a rabbi and had followers in or around the timescale the gospels claim. That doesn’t mean, though, as you say, he performed miracles, was sent by god and rose himself from the dead after 3 days.

    Those last two points in particular have zero history evidence to back them up.

    So, Jesus - the miracle working, self-resurrecting son of god - probably didn’t exist. Anyone spending a bit of time researching any historical evidence (rather than just relying on blind faith) on the Biblical Jesus will come up short.

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