If only someone had kicked my a$$.. (This is post is not for theists)

by HowTheBibleWasCreated 31 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    If I could go back in time kick some one's ass, it would be my own.

    I started studying in 1972, I was sucked in by the whole 1975 thing. At the time I was a university student (at Washington State University), I graduated in 1973 and was baptized a few months later. During this entire time I was studying I had access to the university, which at the time had something over 2,000,000 books in its catalog. I never once went there and looked up Jehovah's Witnesses.

    As an JW I had many discussions with householders about religion. I only listened to their arguments long enough to plan my next comment.

    The reason the vast majority of non-witnesses don't talk to witnesses about religion is because they have better things to do.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    HTBWC, I understand your wish that your eyes could have been opened sooner. But please permit me to regurgitate an ancient homily: "WHEN the student is READY, the teacher will appear" (emphasis mine).

    Instead of pointing my finger at you, I will point it at MYSELF. Way, way back when I was a pioneer and a Ministerial Servant, there may have been a couple of occasions when someone tried to "straighten we out." But I, a "deeply dipped" JW, relied on the wiz-dumb of Jehovah and His Organization, and I refused to be swayed by LOGIC and HISTORICAL TRUTH. Can you dig it?

    Your teacher appeared at EXACTLY the right time to crack your cosmic egg and lead you to the freedom that is your birthright.

    Don't waste time trying to second-guess the past; you have NOW and tomorrow.

    [Selah]

  • jhine
    jhine

    Yes , l did read the title but honestly if you see ' don't read this ' don't you just have to ? : )

    You are right that l do not belong to a high control group and if l choose to not go to church on Sunday l ain't in trouble . I am free to choose my level of involvement . Many Anglicans are hatchers , matchers and dispatchers , attending only christenings , weddings and funerals .

    I take your point about the high control groups but l would say that having control over other people isn't something unique to religious groups . Communism and Fascism are political ideologies that are based on control .

    The desire for power by control is a human condition . Even in a workplace situation bosses will feel " good " if they have complete control over their underlings.

    In schools there are teachers who like the feeling of total control over their pupils .

    Some see control as a necessity for the greater good , as in Communism , or just feel better about themselves as individuals if they can instill fear in others.

    Control by one human being over another isn't love and l agree it has no place in Christianity but unfortunately human beings are faulty and don't act as they should , in all areas of life .

    Jan

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    HowTheBibleWasCreated, I would like to know more about your book. Would you mind telling me what topics are in your book? Is your book aimed specifically at getting JWs to give up biblical beliefs or at Christians in general to give up such? Is the planned title of your book called "How The Bible Was Created" and is your book based largely upon your research of archaeology in regards to the Bible?

    From time to time I have been writing a book aimed at convincing believers in supernaturalism, especially theologically conservative Bible believing Christians (especially ones who have some doubts), to become atheistic philosophical naturalists. I hope that my book will have a greater impact than the God Delusion book and than books by John W. Loftus (author of Why I Became an Atheist: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianity), though I realize it is unlikely my book will become that successful.

    I relate to you wishing someone many years ago had attempted to show you that the JW religion and other ideas were false. Shortly before I ended up becoming baptized, while I was a college bound student in a polytechnic high school, my physics and chemistry teachers (known Christians) - teachers I highly looked up to - made a joint statement within my science class saying they investigated the theory of evolution and determined it is false, I asked two teachers (ones I highly looked up to, one being my electronics teacher and the other might have been my biology teacher) if they thought evolution was true. I asked them to get a second opinion about evolution as a scientific theory, to see if they disagreed with my physics teacher and my chemistry teacher. They became very angry and said the law forbids them to discuss with students their views about evolution (I guess they were Christian creationists). As result of those experiences, coupled with numerous anti-evolution articles in the WT Society literature at around that time, I decided not to research the idea any further that evolution might be true. Those experiences were around the time I became baptized. Later on, from time to time I wondered if evolution is true. (I loved science and I knew most scientists were convinced that evolution is true, I saw some science shows on PBS which taught about evolution [but none of those shows I saw tried to prove evolution is true, they instead took it as a given that evolution is true], and I subscribed to a science magazine for three years and it had some articles supporting evolution which caused me to wonder if evolution is true.) While in high school, before getting baptized, I sometimes thought of looking for pro-atheism literature to see what it said, but heavy indoctrination by the WT literature made me too scared to do so (the WT warned that such literature is full of deception). It wasn't until I stopped believing in the JW version of Christianity that I started reading pro-atheism books and looking up the quotes the WT literature made of evolutionist scientists' science articles and books.

  • ShotWhileTryingToEscape
    ShotWhileTryingToEscape

    I appreciate jhine’s Anglican perspective Control by one human being over another isn't love and l agree it has no place in Christianity”

    Having Anglican friends and family that are open, loving, service oriented people I became curious and attended some of their Sunday services.

    I saw a lot of freedom there — along with life styles that more rigid religions find abhorrent or unscriptural. While Anglicans are criticized for being unorthodox (i.e. wrong teaching) when it came to compassion vs. control they clearly opted for compassion. Freedom allowing freedom. And where was the harm?

    But how could any such reasoning touch us who were “ in the Truth”?

    The WTS rulers (who hilariously call themselves “Slaves”) published a book I read. The title used Jesus’ words “The Truth will set you free” . Also the Slave named their JW belief system“The Truth”. Their Truth was so regimented that we couldn’t gather for bible discussions outside of the official propaganda sessions without reproof —or worse!

    We gradually accepted the complete loss of freedom so we could live *happily* in the Truth— the Truth that sets you free.

    This is classic gaslighting.

    We wouldn’t listen to the ignorance and lies of critics that would rob us of our freedom.

    So I agree with all of the above who say that direct confrontation wouldn’t have helped you, HTBWC. In fact I don’t believe direct confrontation helped any of us escape.

  • jhine
    jhine

    I think that PeacefulPete's post on his thread " Sound familiar " supports some of what l was saying .

    Jan

  • ShotWhileTryingToEscape
    ShotWhileTryingToEscape

    Wow, Jan.

    I posted on peaceful pete’s thread and referred to this very thread before seeing your remark above.

    I agree.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    At times in my life, tactful direct argumentation with clear evidence from books would have helped me discover the truth much sooner than I did, especially if it were evidence for evolution and of problems with the Bible. That is because at various times in my life as a teenage unbaptized publisher, as a baptized JW in high school and college, and even as a MS, I sometimes wondered if evolution was true and if the JW religion, and even parts of the Bible, were false - but no one had personally presented clear evidence to me during those times.

    Eventually the doubts caused me to become inactive (including ceasing meeting attendance of the JW religion) and focusing my attention on critically examining the JW religion and studying the Bible independently (using multiple translations and using Hebrew-Greek Interlinears and 'Christendom's' Bible commentaries and Bible Dictionaries and online articles). Later I had discussions on an online site with a local ex-Christian who was an atheist trying to convert people to atheism. When he pointed out some clear conflicts with the geologic record (which I had not known of) versus the Genesis creation accounts and flood accounts, and after a local Seventh-day Adventist on the same online site said the creative days in Genesis must have been meant to be understood as literal solar days (and stating reasons for the view), I immediately stopped believing the supernatural claims of the Bible (which was after I had already found serious contradictions in the Bible and other problems in the Bible) - including belief in Jehovah/Yahweh God, Jesus Christ, Satan the Devil, etc. A year later I became an outright positive/strong atheist - not merely a non-theist (who wondered if a deistic god or a pantheistic conscious god might exist). I became such an atheist after reading a comment by Steven Hawking in the news, saying science can now explain how the Big Bang and the universe started (or at least could have started) - without recourse to belief in any kind of god - even a deistic god.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW
    At a JW assembly (or convention) sometime between 1995 and 2005, there were so-called apostates protesting peacefully outside of the convention building (while the convention was in intermission, or maybe before the day's session started, or maybe after it ended). They had signs that listed dates pertaining to what the WT predicted would happen on those various dates, or of which they had said supposedly did happen). The dates included the following: 1874, 1878, 1914, 1925, 1975, and others. One sign (or a person speaking through a megaphone) urged JWs to read the April 1, 1972 Watchtower article called "They Shall Know a Prophet is Among Them" in which the organization called JWs a prophet. [That claim is important because if the WT claimed that JWs were prophets, while the WT was making false predictions (which the JWs had spread) that they claim they learned in some way from Jehovah God, then that would be proof that the WT is a false prophet. Most JWs are certain that the WT never claimed to be a prophet.] The ex-JWs from a distance told the JWs they don't need to talk to them (where other JWs could see them and thus get them in trouble for talking to 'apostates'), but instead that after they get home they can secretly look up the claims for themselves in the WT's literature, with the aid of the internet. I already knew that some of the dates pertained to failed predictions. Since I had doubts about the religion (even though I was probably still a MS at the time), I did secretly look up the claim about the WT saying the JWs were in some sense a prophet. I found out it was true (though the article by the Society had the word "prophet" in quote marks, perhaps to imply "like a prophet") and the failed predictions associated with various dates, and discovery of them made an impact on me! It made a difference. The so-called apostates were telling the truth - no lies (or even misleading statements/context) at all in what they said in their public protest and no lies (or even misleading statements/context) at all in what various ones had posted online (when quoting the WT literature, and in many cases they included images of the pages of the WT literature from which the quotes came from)! All of that made a big difference for me. I was stunned. Later in life, after I had stopped attending JW meetings (though I still attended the Memorial for several years until I became an independent Christian, which was before I became an atheist) I purchased books (mostly at a thrift store, but some through eBay) by Russell and Rutherford and I saw the dates in them and the failed predictions that were made about them. Such confirmed that the images I found online at 'apostate' sites were authentic copies of the WT publication's pages.
  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW
    See https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/cults/exposejw/jw_chap3.cfm which gives a testimony of how a baptist became a JW and later how an ex-JW convinced the JW to resign as a JW (however the person did not stop believing in the Bible or Christianity). It is indeed possible to help to some JWs to see the truth.

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