by Sea Breeze 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
What I believe is immaterial. What I want is clarity on the nature of the soul and final punishment.
As for Lazarus and the Rich Man. The account is to be taken literally but it is totally fictional. Jesus was a master satirist long before Jonathan Swift.
What you believe does matter. That’s why we’re conversing on hell.
Yes, VH, when I read about Lazarus and the rich man. I must say, that I take that quite literally. I put that with the rest of the evidence of an afterlife, and I don’t see how you could not take it literally.
So you don’t have anything that really supports your position, is that right? Just don’t want it to be true?
No TTWSF
It's what the scriptures say that is important.
And so far you have not produced a single scripture to support immortality of the soul or eternal torment.or explained where the term Abraham's Bosom originated.
Let me ask you another question while I am at it. How did the Pharisees justify not lifting a finger to alleviate the suffering of the poor?
Actually watch my video and you will find out.
This thread is on hell and not the Pharisees.
from the beginning of historical Christianity, it has been taught that the soul is immortal and can suffer tournaments in hell.
Your position is a new one and I’m asking you to produce your reasons why you think the soul is not immortal.
Lazarus and the rich man is a real and tangible example of how a soul being tormented in the fires of the afterlife was not consumed and destroyed but most definitely goes on suffering. There’s no mention of his sufferings ending is there?
so again, could you please give me reasons why you think the soul would cease to exist. I’m looking for a reason why you think God would destroy his own creation which he made in his own likeness and image.
Do you have anything other than asking for more proof?
I'm not asking for more proof. I'm asking for some proof. I don't care what some or most Christians believe or believed.
It's fine if you cannot support your beliefs from scripture and have to deflect to what others believe.
VH,
Lazarus and the rich man IS proof.
The rich man is BEING tormented. There’s no supporting texts saying that it’s going to end. That’s proof enough to me. He’s burning and NOT dying.
where’s yours supporting your beliefs?
@TTWSYF
Lazarus and the rich man IS proof.
Can a spoof be proof?
The rich man is BEING tormented. There’s no supporting texts saying that it’s going to end. That’s proof enough to me. He’s burning and NOT dying.
The duration of the torment is not discussed. So there is no supporting proof that the torment is not going to end. It's just assumption that it will or will not end.
Verse 25 tell us why the rich man ended up in torment and Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom. Let me paraphrase here:
Abraham said, "SON, it's because Lazarus suffered torments in life and was poor and so he ended up in paradise ... but because you had a good life and had all you wanted, you are now in torments. It's only fair."
How do you think the Pharisees might have reacted to this story? I think it would mirror their response to the preceding allegory commending the covetous self-seeking steward. Good satire, subtly but forcefully, brings home moral or spiritual truths and at the same time leaves unworthy opponents speechless; unable to argue, without first acknowledging that they fit into the negative allegory....leaving them no choice but to attack the man rather than dealing with concepts he was challenging them with.
BTW, the headline in the Jerusalem Chronicle the next day was; "Jesus Turns The Table on The Pharisees in the Afterlife!"
@TTW
The duration of the torment is not discussed. So there is no supporting proof that the torment is not going to end. It's just assumption that it will or will not end.
However, good news for you. The Pharisees believed the torment would last until the final judgment when the torment would be worse. You know, out of the frying pan, into the fire so-to-speak.
HISTORICAL NOTE: That the view of hell depicted in Luke 16 was an integral part of first century Pharisaic tradition is nowhere more clearly delineated than in the following excerpt attributed to Josephus (himself a Pharisee) to explain the Jewish concept of Hades to the Greeks.
Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region...allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to everyone's behaviour and manners... while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined. For there is one decent into this region...the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hyms, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor any briers there; but the countenance of the Fathers and of the just, which they see always smiles upon them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.
But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence... they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it. (Underscoring mine)
Source: Flavius, Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, William Whiston, A.M., Translator. pp. 901-902
David says in the 23rd psalm that he will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. That indicates that the soul is immortal. Jesus told the good thief on the cross “today you’ll be with me in paradise “that indicates to me that the soul is immortal.
The rich man and Lazarus are proof that the Lord punishes those who reject his ways of loving him and loving neighbors as ourselves.
I see no evidence that supports. He will just let us die and be the end of it. None..
You have shown me no proof to support that the soul is not immortal other than that’s what you want to believe.
You do see that don’t you?
Well, since immortality is something we must wait till the resurrection to put on, I would say that is proof enough that human souls are not innately immortal.
BTW, all in their graves, good and evil, will come forth at the resurrection. So death is not the end.
