Evolution is a Fact #38 - The Origin of Complex Cells

by cofty 71 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    cofty

    Eukaryotes are a result of a chimera of an archaeal host and and prokaryotic symbiont. With mitochondria taking care of energy production through aerobic respiration it was possible for the cell to increase in size by many orders of magnitude. Although as I said in the OP the two spectrum of sizes do overlap.

    The prokaryotic symbiont contributed not just genes, but also retrotransposons that resulted in the snipping of the circular single chromosome of the archaea into multiple linear chromosomes as well as the origin of telomeres and centromeres. The specific steps are well understood and has been described in detail. There is no mystery and no "chasm".

    The chimera of prokaryote and archaea also accounts for the appearance of the nucleus. I will be describing this in my next thread in this series. Once again the answer is all about transposons. Look out for part two.

    Like bacteria, archaea do not have nuclei, and are thus prokaryotes.

    Yes that's right. I will be describing the reason for the evolution of a nucleus in part two.

    Archaea also lack other membrane-bound organelles, including mitochondria and chloroplasts.

    Yes of course. That is my whole point. The organelles resulted from endosymbiosis.

    No spliceosomal introns have been found in archaea

    They came from the symbiotic prokaryote.

    archaea also lack the machinery to synthesize eukaryotic telomeres and to splice spliceosomal introns, two processes essential for the survival of eukaryotes.

    This is simple. The scissors also came from the symbiont. More in part two.

    I know you won't bother reading it but here is a paper that answers most of your objections.

    On the Origin of the Eukaryotic Chromosome: The Role of Noncanonical DNA Structures in Telomere Evolution ...

    I will describe it in part two.


  • cofty
    cofty

    Now you have the opportunity to do one of two things.

    Ignore everything I have written without even reading it properly and copy-paste multiple abstracts from papers you don't have access to, throw in a few copy-paste from AIG and repeat things that already been explained

    or

    carefully read that paper I linked for you. You are a professional microbiologist it should be easy.

    Telling me how different prokaryotes, archaea and eukaryotes are doesn't advance your case at all.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    After going through some of the recommended articles, here’s a few observations (my comments in are in bold letters):

    Article: There are still quite a few gray areas in the figure where either the higher plant sequences have not been determined or they are known but the gene phylogeny is insufficiently clear (in our view) to make a statement on the origin of the plant nuclear genes. Chloroplastic and cytosolic pyruvate kinases are a good example of sequenced genes with an evolutionary history that is so intriguingly complex (Hattori et al., 1995) that one cannot yet tell where the plant nuclear genes come from. Furthermore, cases are also known in which the compartmentation of individual gene products can change in different lineages over evolutionary time, such that Figure 2, if prepared for Chlamydomonas or Euglena rather than spinach, would reveal different patterns of origins and compartmentation for the enzymes of the same pathways in those organisms (for an overview, see Martin and Schnarrenberger, 1997).

    1) Complexity: The scientists are unable to work out some of the aspects of gene phylogeny in their labs. How could these develop randomly, spontaneously and unaided?


    Article: Further work is in progress to determine the mechanism and consequences of the sams gene switching in amoeba/X-bacteria symbiosis. The switch in gene expression in amoebae is not only an example of genetic alterations caused by host-symbiont interactions but also may serve as a good model to study interactions between hosts and infective agents such as Mycobacterium, Legionella, Toxoplasma, Salmonella, and others.

    2) Amoebal Immunity: This is a simple immunity mechanism integral to Amoebae, similar to our more complicated immune response. This is not a random process and cannot develop spontaneously. It has been designed that way. In addition, there’s a huge chasm between Amoebal immunity and mammalian immunity, as I remarked earlier.


    Article: Various strains of Human Papilloma Virus (HPV) have recently been found to play an important role in the development of cervical cancer. The HPV oncogenes E6 and E7 that these viruses possess have been shown to immortalise some human cells and thus promote cancer development. Although these strains of HPV have not been found in all cervical cancers, they have been found to be the cause in roughly 70% of cases. The study of these viruses and their role in the development of various cancers is still continuing, however a vaccine has been developed that can prevent infection of certain HPV strains, and thus prevent those HPV strains from causing cervical cancer, and possibly other cancers as well.

    3) Human cancer cells remain human even though their nuclear material had been altered (not a new species)


    Article: As shown by our study on the growth rates of amoebae, xD amoebae are more sensitive to exogenous AdoMet than are D amoebae. It is not known why xD amoebae are more sensitive to AdoMet, but it seems to be related to the fragility of the plasmalemma of xD amoebae. It is known that xD amoebae are more sensitive to overfeeding, starvation, microsurgical operations and elevated culture temperature (Jeon, 1995).

    4) Natural selection: Interestingly, the xD amoebae have not been improved. Their chances of survival have been considerably reduced. No super or improved organism with the proses of endosymbiosis, I’m afraid.


    Article: Genome sequences reveal that a deluge of DNA from organelles has constantly been bombarding the nucleus since the origin of organelles. Recent experiments have shown that DNA is transferred from organelles to the nucleus at frequencies that were previously unimaginable. Endosymbiotic gene transfer is a ubiquitous, continuing and natural process that pervades nuclear DNA dynamics. This relentless influx of organelle DNA has abolished organelle autonomy and increased nuclear complexity.

    5) Theoretically then, super or improved organisms should result from the following processes, even in the lab. We see, this is not the case.


    Article: The bacterial recA gene and its eukaryotic homolog RAD51 are important for DNA repair, homologous recombination, and genome stability. Members of the recA/RAD51 family have functions that have differentiated during evolution. However, the evolutionary history and relationships of these members remains unclear. Homolog searches in prokaryotes and eukaryotes indicated that most eubacteria contain only one recA. However, many archaeal species have two recA/RAD51 homologs (RADA and RADB), and eukaryotes possess multiple members (RAD51, RAD51B, RAD51C, RAD51D, DMC1, XRCC2, XRCC3, andrecA). Phylogenetic analyses indicated that the recA/RAD51 family can be divided into three subfamilies: (i)RADα, with highly conserved functions; (ii) RADβ, with relatively divergent functions; and (iii) recA, functioning in eubacteria and eukaryotic organelles. The RADα and RADβ subfamilies each contain archaeal and eukaryotic members, suggesting that a gene duplication occurred before the archaea/eukaryote split. In the RADα subfamily, eukaryotic RAD51 and DMC1 genes formed two separate monophyletic groups when archaeal RADA genes were used as an outgroup. This result suggests that another duplication event occurred in the early stage of eukaryotic evolution, producing the DMC1 clade with meiosis-specific genes. The RADβ subfamily has a basal archaeal clade and five eukaryotic clades, suggesting that four eukaryotic duplication events occurred before animals and plants diverged. The eukaryotic recA genes were detected in plants and protists and showed strikingly high levels of sequence similarity to recA genes from proteobacteria or cyanobacteria. These results suggest that endosymbiotic transfer of recA genes occurred from mitochondria and chloroplasts to nuclear genomes of ancestral eukaryotes.

    6) The sentence reads: "Members of the recA/RAD51 family have functions that have differentiated during evolution." The next sentence reads: "However, the evolutionary history and relationships of these members remains unclear." Isn't that accepting things at face value without evidence?


    Article: Chloroplasts arose >1.2 billion years ago (1) when a free-living cyanobacterium became an endosymbiont in a eukaryotic host. Since that time, chloroplast genomes have undergone severe reduction, because chloroplast genomes encode between 50 and 200 proteins, whereas cyanobacterial genomes encode several thousand. Accordingly, endosymbiotic theories have always assumed that the cyanobacterial ancestor of plastids relinquished much of its genetic autonomy: “it is not surprising that chloroplasts lost their ability to live independently long ago,” as Mereschkowsky put it in 1905 (2). In today's terms, that means that during the course of evolution, genes must have been transferred from the ancestral chloroplast to the nucleus, where they acquired the proper expression and targeting signals to allow the encoded proteins to be synthesized on cytosolic ribosomes and reimported into the organelle with the help of a transit peptide. This process, a special kind of lateral gene transfer called endosymbiotic gene transfer (3), appears to be very widespread in nature: ≈18% of the nuclear genes in Arabidopsis seem to come from cyanobacteria (4), and obvious remnants of the chloroplast DNA have been found in higher plant nuclear chromosomes (5). Evolutionary biologists have long been able to infer endosymbiotic gene transfer from evolutionary sequence comparisons but have not been able to watch it happen in the lab until now. In this issue of PNAS, Stegemann et al. (6) report gene transfer from the tobacco chloroplast genome to nuclear chromosomes under laboratory conditions. Their findings, together with other recent developments, open up new chapters in our understanding of organelle–nuclear DNA dynamics and have far-reaching evolutionary implications.

    7) Mitochondria and Chloroplasts: If things took place randomly and spontaneously, Why did chloroplasts not find their way into the animal and human genome?


    Article: Photosynthetic eukaryotes, particularly unicellular forms, possess a fossil record that is either wrought with gaps or difficult to interpret, or both. Attempts to reconstruct their evolution have focused on plastid phylogeny, but were limited by the amount and type of phylogenetic information contained within single genes1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Among the 210 different protein-coding genes contained in the completely sequenced chloroplast genomes from a glaucocystophyte, a rhodophyte, a diatom, a euglenophyte and five land plants, we have now identified the set of 45 common to each and to a cyanobacterial outgroup genome. Phylogenetic inference with an alignment of 11,039 amino-acid positions per genome indicates that this information is sufficient — but just barely so — to identify the rooted nine-taxon topology. We mapped the process of gene loss from chloroplast genomes across the inferred tree and found that, surprisingly, independent parallel gene losses in multiple lineages outnumber phylogenetically unique losses by more than 4:1. We identified homologues of 44 different plastid-encoded proteins as functional nuclear genes of chloroplast origin, providing evidence for endosymbiotic gene transfer to the nucleus in plants.

    8) Again, the fossil record is full of gaps and do not support symbiogenesis as the principal mechanism of developing life forms.


    Article: The experimental design used by Stegemann et al. (6) was simple and effective. Using a technology called chloroplast transformation (7), they introduced a cassette containing two foreign genes into tobacco chloroplast DNA. The first one encoded spectinomycin resistance (aad) under the control of a chloroplast-specific promoter; the second one encoded kanamycin resistance (npt) under the control of a nuclear-specific promoter. They took advantage of the fact that whole tobacco plants can be regenerated from single cells. By subjecting transformed tobacco tissues to several rounds of selection on medium containing spectinomycin, they were able to obtain tobacco plants that were homoplastomic for aad and npt; that is, all copies of the chloroplast DNA in all plastids in those plants contained the new cassette. By placing small sections of leaves from those aad/npt homoplastomic lines on kanamycin-containing medium, they initiated selection for strong expression of the npt gene under the control of the nuclear-specific promoter. That was the key step, because on kanamycin medium, only such tobacco cells will survive whose nuclear DNA has incorporated a segment of the genetically modified chloroplast DNA containing the new npt gene.

    9) Unnatural Gene Manipulation by Researchers: If it was an open, random, spontaneous process to begin with, why is it now a closed process that can only be manipulated with the help of the genetic engineers?

  • cofty
    cofty

    More lazy copy-paste.

    Many of your comments do relate to the quotes you have given. How is it that you do that all the time and yet you claim to be a professional microbiologist? You fail yet again to provide links for the articles you are copy-pasting. This is at least the sixth time I have asked you to sort that.

    I have answered every one of your questions up to now with genuine research and in my own words. All you do is ignore it all, do a google search and start pasting.

    All of your objections can be summed up as - "x is very complex, therefore I have no idea how it could have evolved"

    It is no different from the argument of Wm Paley that Darwin answered 150 years ago.

    I have shown - and you have accepted - that endosymbiosis has not only taken place but that it has been observed in the lab. We have proven that gene transfer takes place between symbiont and host. In part two I will describe how endosymbiosis made complex multi-cellular life possible and how it gave rise to the eukaryotic cell nucleus.

    I will get to some of your deliberate distortions of your selected quotes later tonight.

  • shepherdless
    shepherdless

    I read this thread from start to finish, to try to understand it. There is some fascinating biology referred to above. A lot of it I never knew about before. Anyway, here are some questions for Vidqun, in relation to his/her lengthy last post:

    1. Complexity: Isn't your argument is like saying:

    "I don't know whether the first car that went past my house this morning was a red car, a blue car, or what colour. There are so many potential colours. Until we can prove what colour it was, we have to assume NO car went past my house."

    2. Amoebal Immunity: Your 4th sentence seems to contradict your first sentence. Also, how does the unidentified article extract support your point?

    3. Human cancer cells: What relevance is the name you choose to give to a human cancer cell? If we call a human cancer cell a "banana", will it become edibile? Also, what is the relevance of HPV causing cancer, to the overall debate. (Viruses aren't prokaryotes.)

    4. Natural Selection: You have quoted part of the 7th last para of a lengthy article written in 2004 titled "Gene switching in Amoeba proteus caused by endosymbiotic bacteria". Yes, the new life form wasn't a superbug ready to ravage the planet. The xD amoebae only out-populated its relatives when maintained in the same laboratory conditions within which it evolved.

    5. Super improved organisms: Why should they be? See 4 above.

    6. Unclear evolutionary history: See the car colour analogy in 1 above.

    7. Why did chloroplasts not find their way into the animal and human genome? I don't know but my guess would be that the first animals lived in the sea where there would not have been any use for chloroplasts, and by the time they walked on land, it was easier for them to eat vegetation and other animals? Maybe photosynthesis doesn't provide enough energy for an animal to walk around. Lack of chloroplasts in animals seems more of an argument FOR evolution, then against it, to me.

    8. "Again, the fossil record is full of gaps and do not support symbiogenesis as the principal mechanism of developing life forms." Yet the section you quote (wherever it is from) seems to suggest the opposite.

    9. Unnatural Gene Manipulation by Researchers: your supposed point seems to contradict the quote supporting your point 5.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Very useful post shepherdless thank you.

    I will post my reply later Vidqun but I hope you respond to Shepherdless.

    I have worked out what it is you do. You make very simplistic objections to evidence but you mix it up with as much copy-paste of scientific texts as possible so that it looks as if you are making a more profound point. You never provide links for your sources so I can check the context. Most of the time - almost all of the time - your sources contribute nothing at all to your points or even refute them.

    I would like to work on part two but I suppose I will have to waste more time replying to your previous post first. Later.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Cofty, yes I agree, we are making progress, albeit slowly. First of all, you gave me a list of articles. Click here and take a look for yourself...

    Why? Is it in order to prove your Googling skills? I look up the articles and comment on them (not good). I did not bother giving references in order to save time and because you gave me the impression that you were familiar with them and their contents (not good). I can’t put the scientist findings in my own words, I rather let them speak for themselves, thus I am forced to copy & paste (not good). Please make up your mind.

    I am honored that you do spend your precious time on my bullshit. And yes, I do look forward to this one: “On the Origin of the Eukaryotic Chromosome.” There’s some interesting words and phrases I want to highlight.

    Sheperdless, I thank you for your input and I’m glad you found the quotes interesting. Not sure about your color-car illustration though. Perhaps we should get back to the OP.

    Evolution is a Fact #38 - The Origin of Complex Cells

    So, no. 1 is directly related to the OP. Are you with me thus far? Now read part of the quote again: “There are still quite a few gray areas in the figure where either the higher plant sequences have not been determined or they are known but the gene phylogeny is insufficiently clear (in our view) to make a statement on the origin of the plant nuclear genes. Chloroplastic and cytosolic pyruvate kinases are a good example of sequenced genes with an evolutionary history that is so intriguingly complex (Hattori et al., 1995) that one cannot yet tell where the plant nuclear genes come from.”

    Now the OP claims: Evolution is a Fact. After reading the above, would you say this is the truth or a lie? To add to that, scientists and researchers can’t work out above processes as yet. That means they cannot replicate them either. However, evolutionists claim all these (very complicated) processes originated randomly and spontaneously in a natural environment. Here I beg to differ. In nature, one sees gradual decay, deterioration and disintegration, and not constant improvement as the evolutionist contend. This is contrary to nature and will not change even in a billion years.

    No. 2 is supported by the scientists. They are studying endosymbiosis in the Amoeba in order “to study interactions between hosts and infective agents such as Mycobacterium, Legionella, Toxoplasma, Salmonella, and others,” because similar processes are at work in mammals and humans. Coming back to complexity, evolutionists argue that our immune system (highly complex) originated from these processes (very basic and simplified). I find such claims difficult to digest.

    No. 3 makes the point that even if the genome of the cells are changed, these remain human cancer cells. Similarly, the nuclear material of Amoeba proteus was changed by endosymbiosis. This is now a variant of Amoeba, resistant to X-bacteria. The process cannot be used to demonstrate a species change, as evolutionists insist (Def.: The term symbiogenesis refers to the genesis of a new species or kind of life through the merger of two or more existing species. Endosymbiogenesis refers to the origin of a new lineage—a sequence of species that forms a line of descent).

    No. 4 points to the fact that the process of natural selection do not favor xD amoebae, that underwent endosymbiosis, to survive in a natural environment.

    No. 5 reads in part, “This relentless influx of organelle DNA has abolished organelle autonomy and increased nuclear complexity.” If one compares a one-celled organism to a human, I would venture to say that the human qualifies as a super organism, wouldn't you? In other words, the route from a one-celled organism (simplified life form) to a highly complex life form, is a tortuous one with many and huge chasms to overcome.

    6. "Members of the recA/RAD51 family have functions that have differentiated during evolution." In the same breath the writer says: "However, the evolutionary history and relationships of these members remains unclear." I have a problem with such statements. Nevertheless, this is typical evolutionary (Cofty) speak because all of them view evolution as a fact. I view it differently.

    7. Yup, that happens when guesswork is involved. You get nowhere fast. But remember now, according to evolutionists, in the “primordial soup” all these archaea and bacteria would flourish. How they got there no one can say. These ingest each other randomly, right? From there one would expect all kinds of intermediate forms to exist and develop. By the way, some snails do have chloroplasts, it seems. Or is the composition of a chloroplast so unique and specialized that it is incompatible with a mammalian cell. So a fork in evolution would take place at some juncture that would send archaea, bacteria, fungi and plants in one direction and animals into a different direction with no intermediate forms. This would happen randomly and spontaneously. In my mind that’s a long shot and why evolution should be viewed as a theory and not a fact.

    8. At least the researchers are big enough and honest enough to admit this. So if you oppose this point, are you really being honest?

    9. Evolutionists insist that in the murky past it was a open process of archaea and bacteria merging to form new organisms, e.g., eukaryotes. Somewhere along the line the open processes became closed, which in our day can only be unlocked and changed by scientists and genetic engineers in specialized labs. It's an interesting concept nevertheless, but highly unlikely.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Vidqun - This is the first time in more than 20 posts you have had the honesty to write up your thoughts in your own words. Usually you pretend you have scientific support for your objections.

    All of your challenges are very easy, most of them are based on your lack of a basic understanding of evolution. I look forward to responding in detail this evening.

  • shepherdless
    shepherdless

    Hi Vidqun. I owe you a response, but it will have to be quick and brief. I might not be able to get back to this for a while. Here it is:

    1. Complexity:

    "scientists and researchers can’t work out above processes as yet..."

    This the whole point of my coloured car analogy. If I observe wheel tracks outside my house, I can't tell the colour of the car that drove by. Just because I can't tell you the colour doesn't mean I have to conclude there was no car.

    "In nature, one sees gradual decay, deterioration and disintegration, and not constant improvement as the evolutionist contend. This is contrary to nature and will not change even in a billion years."

    The second law of thermodynamics leads to that result, in a closed system. Anything that eats or absorbs energy in some way is, by definition, not a closed system. I think I am going to have to create my own O.P. on the laws of thermodynamics, because there have been fallacious posts on various threads by a number of people.

    2. "Coming back to complexity, evolutionists argue that our immune system (highly complex) originated from these processes (very basic and simplified). I find such claims difficult to digest."

    This is the complexity argument again. Not a separate argument.

    3. "symbiogenesis refers to the genesis of a new species or kind of life through the merger of two or more existing species. Endosymbiogenesis refers to the origin of a new lineage..."

    Surely if symbiogenesis is proven to occur, then endosymbiogenesis is likely to occur.

    4. "points to the fact that the process of natural selection do not favor xD amoebae, that underwent endosymbiosis, to survive in a natural environment."

    That is hardly surprising. It is probably why xD amoebae isn't found in nature. However, in a certain artificial lab environment (the environment in which it evolved) , it appears to survive better than its D amoebae relative. Isn't that what you would expect.

    5. I think this is the complexity argument again.

    6. This is the complexity argument again. I again point to my coloured cars analogy.

    7. "So a fork in evolution would take place at some juncture that would send archaea, bacteria, fungi and plants in one direction and animals into a different direction with no intermediate forms. This would happen randomly and spontaneously. In my mind that’s a long shot and why evolution should be viewed as a theory and not a fact."

    Why would there be an intermediate form? Why would an animal evolve to photosynthesize if it can just eat grass instead?

    8. "At least the researchers are big enough and honest enough to admit this. So if you oppose this point, are you really being honest?"

    I did not oppose anything. I just pointed out that your source seemed to say the opposite to your point.

    9. "Somewhere along the line the open processes became closed, which in our day can only be unlocked and changed by scientists and genetic engineers in specialized labs."

    Did it become closed? Perhaps genetic engineers don't have a spare million years or two to wait around, so they do things to speed up the process.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Sheperdless, simple answer that covers all of the above. I view the complexity in nature is a result of intelligent design, whereas you and your fellow evolutionists believe that it has developed by itself over a long period of time. I believe that is impossible. Something that I would have liked to discuss, but never got round to it, is the inner workings of the bacterial flagellum. This is probably the best demonstration of my argument:

    The bacterial flagellar motor is a complex biological rotary molecular motor, which is situated in the cell envelopes of bacteria. Whereas most biological motors use adenosine triphosphate as their energy source, the rotation of the flagellar motor is driven by a flow of charged ions across the bacterial plasma membrane. The motor powers the rotation of helical flagellar filaments at speeds of up to several hundred hertz. These rotating filaments act like propellers, pushing the cells through their environment. The motors are regulated by one of the best characterised biological signalling pathways, the chemotaxis pathway. This pathway changes the swimming pattern of the bacteria in response to changes in the concentration of external chemicals so that they move into environments, which are optimal for their growth. Other pathways can regulate the flagellar motor and the motor itself can respond to changing conditions by adapting parts of its structure.

    Many bacteria swim using a small biological rotary motor which is powered by the movement of ions (H+ or Na+) across the plasma membrane.

    The bacterial flagellar motor consists of a rotor which rotates against stator units that are anchored to the peptidoglycan cell wall.

    Torque is generated by the interaction of the stator units, MotA and MotB (or PomA and PomB for Na+driven motors), with FliG in the rotor.

    Despite the fact that the driving ions always flow in one direction through the stator units, many flagellar motors can switch between clockwise and counterclockwise rotation.

    The structure of the flagellar motor is highly dynamic, some of its components undergo rapid turnover while the motor is functioning in response to changing conditions.

    A complex signalling pathway regulates the motor output in response to environmental signals ensuring that bacteria swim towards nutrient rich environments. 1

    1. Bacterial Flagella: Flagellar Motor

    Nicolas J Delalez, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK. Published online: August 2014. Full article on Wiley Online Library.





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