by nicolaou 299 Replies latest watchtower bible
The operative word being 'fear'. Is that the basis for love? Or does that sound like people trying to manipulate others?
But to cut to the chase, I'm just as afraid of Yahweh as I am about Shemesh/Shamesh, the daughter of El/Ashera who was later morphed into Yahweh/Ashera.
As described, Yahweh is quite terrifying. And this is based on how he is described by those who think highly of him.
Tonus - We cannot stop him, we cannot hide from him, and the best we can do is hope that we're not the next target.
I would agree with everything up until here. I believe the best we can do, is to try to follow his rules. Ecclesiastes chapter 2 reads ..."to the person who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness...".
We can define him however we wish, but his actions make it quite clear who he is and what he is like. He is a frightening being, when we recognize that his actions are who he is.
No doubt, God causes us human beings to feel fear, to see him as frightening. But isn't this a logical response from us? Imagine a person with absolute power and absolute ability to wield it, as you stated correctly. And not just in the physical world here but in the spiritual one too. To cause life to arise from nothing...and to take it right back to dust.
It's not for nothing that the scripture states that the fear of God, is the beginning of wisdom. First comes humility, then everything else falls into place. That's the sequence, as I understand it from the Bible.
Human parents have 'absolute power' over their newborn children for quite a few years.
Although some sadly abuse this power most don't. We nurture, cherish and protect our children often at the cost of our own freedoms and dreams.
We gently correct poor behaviour and explain ourselves in ways our children will understand. We don't hide the facts or lie to them.
God could learn a lot from us
Halcon: No doubt, God causes us human beings to feel fear, to see him as frightening. But isn't this a logical response from us?
By itself, his power and grandeur is imposing. Intimidating. I think this is understandable.
The fear comes from the realization that he frequently uses this power to punish his creation. His standards are clearly outside of the ability of his creation to maintain-- even those who are loyal and dedicated to him will admit that they fall short of his standards, no matter how hard they work to please him. Indeed, the only human who ever met Yahweh's standards was Jesus, who was a god (possibly this very same god) masquerading as a human.
And it's not just humans. At least a third of the angels have fallen, possibly many more (how many have lapsed since the last Biblical tome was written?). Meeting god's standards is a goal humans cannot reach and that even angels are likely to fall short of. Over a long enough time span, it is reasonable to expect that none of his creation will avoid his wrath. In other words, it is inevitable that we will be condemned by god.
What scenario is there, where we do not offend god? The only possible future where we are not all hellbound is one where we are stripped of free will and remade to serve. And if this was to be the eventual outcome, why not do it from the start?
one thing i am learning is it's obvious who is really afraid of him and who's not
Only small children and the mentally ill are afraid of fairy tail characters.
Also, we're not here to listen to your clap-trap. If you can't take part in a discussion properly, you'll be removed, like all your idiotic "god loves you" tripe.
Tonus -Over a long enough time span, it is reasonable to expect that none of his creation will avoid his wrath.
Not correct, if the scriptures are to be believed regarding the eventual unity between mankind and God.
What scenario is there, where we do not offend god? The only possible future where we are not all hellbound is one where we are stripped of free will and remade to serve. And if this was to be the eventual outcome, why not do it from the start?
This is a reasonable conclusion based on what we perceive on the surface. However, it's again reducing/underestimating God's capacity.
Don't forget, that despite failing to follow his rules there are many that truly want to. These folks don't need to have their free will removed.
Halcon: Not correct, if the scriptures are to be believed regarding the eventual unity between mankind and God.
The scriptures are fairly vague about this, though. Perhaps the one clear indication is that we are to spend eternity glorifying a being who doesn't need to be glorified. I think this means we will lose our freedom, as I cannot see everyone doing that forever and being satisfied with it. Why go through a relatively brief life that doesn't come close to resembling the life we will spend the rest of eternity in?
Halcon: Don't forget, that despite failing to follow his rules there are many that truly want to.
And yet, they cannot. So we have to wonder what will change to make that capable of doing so, while retaining whatever it is that makes them who they are. That's a pretty fundamental behavioral change, IMO. And it makes me wonder why this couldn't have been turned on for that first human couple. It would have avoided thousands of years of suffering (and an eternity of suffering to come, for a great many).
Sometimes thought experiments serve a useful purpose. Pursuing a hypothetical to it's logical end, can be revealing. In the case of the Yahwist creation myth, it can become a rabbit hole.
The story was never intended to be logical, it screams that when it includes talking animals and magical fruit. (drawn from a deep pool of ancient myth) It was 'theological' in purpose. It pantomimes religious concepts like obedience to religious law when at odds with individual and intellectual freedom. As frustrating as that is for some to accept, that is the message.
peacefulpete: Pursuing a hypothetical to it's logical end, can be revealing. In the case of the Yahwist creation myth, it can become a rabbit hole.
Agreed. Whatever value can be drawn from these stories if they're treated as allegorical is lost the moment they're taken literally. I think part of it is the fear that not taking stories like the Fall literally will bring the whole house of cards down.
If Adam and Eve didn't fall from grace in Eden then what did Jesus die for?
