The pushing berween the K of N and K of S

by Kosonen 28 Replies latest jw friends

  • ExBethelitenowPIMA

    The brics alliance will back their new currency by commodities like gold and silver.

    the Anglo American alliance has unbacked currency that is dying

    next they will bring in the mark of the beast crypto CBDC and you will need Elon musks chip nueral link in your head and the chip in your hand and without the mark you will not be able to buy or sell anything

  • EasyPrompt

    While the WTBT$ descriptions of the Daniel chapter 11 King of the North and King of the South were accurate in the Daniel's Prophecy publication from verse 1 up until and including the Aurelian/Zenobia part, they are not accurate after that point. (The WTBT$ flip-flopped more recently and said the Zenobia part was wrong, but their newer explanation is way off...)

    Daniel 11:25,26 fits Aurelian/Zenobia time period and the demise of later Roman armies.

    Daniel 11:27 is where we are now in the stream of time. "As regards these two kings, their heart will be inclined to do what is bad, and they will sit at one table speaking lies to each other. But nothing will succeed, because the end is yet for the time appointed." The lying kings are members of the United Nations today.

    The rest of Daniel 11, from verse 28 to the end, is basically referring to events during the great tribulation.

    When those verses from 28-45 mention being against "the holy covenant" or "removing the constant feature" or "speaking against the God of gods" it is referring to the future time when Christ takes the throne in heaven and the UN affiliated nations on earth attack religious institutions and also make it difficult for sincere worshippers.

    (The WTBT$ says some of those verses from Daniel 11:28-45 refer to WWI and WWII, but that's not accurate. They say "since the Kingdom began in 1914, that's why those nations were against the holy covenant" but their reasoning is off. The Kingdom didn't begin in 1914, so those verses that refer to being "against the holy covenant" are referring to a future time.)

    At Daniel 11:31 it says: "And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation." The UN is in existence, but it is not yet causing desolation to religious institutions. It will cause desolation to all religious institutions during the great tribulation.

    Daniel 11:36 is talking about what the leader of the UN will do during the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation: "The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place."

  • EasyPrompt

    The Kings of the North and South today trace their descent from specific nations. The actions of the Kings make clear their identity in the latter part of Daniel chapter 11 as including the UN.

    (1,2) As for me, in the first year of Da·riʹus the Mede, I stood up to strengthen and fortify him. What I will tell you now is the truth: “Look! Three more kings will stand up for Persia, and the fourth one will amass greater riches than all others. And when he becomes strong by means of his riches, he will rouse up everything against the kingdom of Greece." ("Three more kings for Persia" = Cyrus, Cambyses II, Darius I; "The fourth one" = Xerxes I)

    (3,4) “And a mighty king will stand up and rule with extensive dominion and do as he pleases. But when he has stood up, his kingdom will be broken and be divided toward the four winds of the heavens, but not to his descendants and not like the dominion with which he ruled; for his kingdom will be uprooted and go to others besides these." (Mighty king = Alexander the Great; Four generals = Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus I, Ptolemy I)

    (5) “And the king of the south will become strong, that is, one of his princes; but one will prevail against him and will rule with extensive dominion, greater than that one’s ruling power." (Ptolemy I of Egypt is king of south who becomes strong; Syrian King Seleucus I Nicator prevailed against him.)

    (6-9) “After some years they will make an alliance, and the daughter of the king of the south will come to the king of the north in order to make an equitable arrangement. But she will not retain the power of her arm; and he will not stand, nor his arm; and she will be given up, she and those bringing her in, and the one who caused her birth, and the one making her strong in those times. And one from the sprout of her roots will stand up in his position, and he will come to the army and come against the fortress of the king of the north and will take action against them and prevail. Also with their gods, with their metal images, with their desirable articles of silver and of gold, and with captives, he will come to Egypt. For some years he will stand off from the king of the north, who will come against the kingdom of the king of the south, but will go back to his own land." (Berenice, the daughter of southern king Ptolemy II, married northern king Antiochus II. After Ptolemy II died, Antiochus II rejected Berenice. Antiochus II's first wife, Laodice, planned the murder of Berenice and her son as well as Antiochus II. Laodice's son with Antiochus II, Seleucus II, became Syrian northern king. Ptolemy III of south avenged the murders and plundered.)

    (10) “As for his sons, they will prepare for war and assemble a vast, great army. He will certainly advance and sweep through like a flood. But he will go back, and he will wage war all the way to his fortress." (Antiochus III of northern kingdom fought Ptolemy IV of south successfully.)

    (11,12) “And the king of the south will become bitter and will go out and fight with him, that is, with the king of the north; and he will muster a large crowd, but the crowd will be given into that one’s hand. And the crowd will be carried away. His heart will become exalted, and he will cause tens of thousands to fall; but he will not make use of his strong position." (Ptolemy IV with 75,000 troops moved toward Antiochus III with 68,000 troops. Antiochus III lost at Raphia. After making a treaty, Ptolemy IV wasted his advantage on loose living.)

    (13) “And the king of the north will return and muster a crowd larger than the first; and at the end of the times, after some years, he will surely come with a large army and with many resources. In those times many will stand up against the king of the south." (Around two decades later Antiochus III joined forces with Macedonian King Philip V and came back against kingdom of the south to recover lost territories.)

    (14) “And the violent ones among your people will be carried along to try making a vision come true; but they will stumble." (Young King Ptolemy V and his guardian Agathocles faced revolts in Egypt, some Jews also revolted.)

    (15-19) “And the king of the north will come and throw up a siege rampart and capture a fortified city. And the arms of the south will not stand, nor will his select men; and they will have no power to stand. The one coming against him will do as he pleases, and no one will stand before him. He will stand in the land of the Decoration, and ability to exterminate will be in his hand. He will set his face to come with the full force of his kingdom, and there will be equitable terms with him; and he will act effectively. As regards the daughter of women, it will be granted to him to bring her to ruin. And she will not stand, and she will not continue to be his. He will turn his face back to the coastlands and will capture many. And a commander will make the reproach from him cease for himself, so that his reproach will not be. He will make it turn back on that one. Then he will turn his face back to the fortresses of his own land, and he will stumble and fall, and he will not be found." (Ptolemy V's General Scopas driven into Sidon with his 10,000 select men by Antiochus III. Antiochus III also marched against Jerusalem. Judah no longer dominated by Egypt, instead passed to Syria. Rome intervened. Antiochus III planned political advantage by giving his daughter Cleopatra I in marriage to Ptolemy V. Antiochus III's plan backfired, war between Antiochus III and Rome; Egypt sided with Rome. Antiochus III fought in coastlands of Macedonia, Greece, and Asia Minor. Rome won at Thermopylae; Antiochus III later died disgracefully.)

    (20) “And there will stand up in his position one who causes an exactor to pass through the splendid kingdom, but in a few days he will be broken, though not in anger nor in warfare." (Rome as northern kingdom. Octavian/Caesar Augustus ordered registration/census. Caesar Augustus died of illness.)

    (21-24) “And there will stand up in his position a despised one, and they will not give him the majesty of the kingdom; and he will come in during a time of security and take hold of the kingdom by means of smoothness. And the arms of the flood will be swept away on account of him, and they will be broken; as will be the Leader of the covenant. And because of their alliance with him, he will carry on deception and rise up and become mighty by means of a little nation. During a time of security he will come into the richest parts of the province and do what his fathers and their fathers have not done. Plunder and spoil and goods he will distribute among them; and against fortified places he will plot his schemes, but only for a time." (Tricky Tiberius Caesar next king of north. After limited victories against German forces, Tiberius promoted foreign civil war to hold back flood of invaders. Jesus executed by Tiberius' governor. Praetorian Guard initially strengthened Tiberius.)

    (25) “And he will muster his power and his heart against the king of the south with a large army, and the king of the south will prepare himself for the war with an exceedingly large and mighty army. And he will not stand, because they will plot schemes against him. And those eating his delicacies will bring his downfall." (Roman Emperor Aurealian against Zenobia.)

    (26) “As for his army, it will be swept away, and many will fall down slain." (Roman army suffered in attacks by Goths, Germanic tribes.)

    (27) “As regards these two kings, their heart will be inclined to do what is bad, and they will sit at one table speaking lies to each other. But nothing will succeed, because the end is yet for the time appointed." (The two major Roman empire-descended/Christendom kingdoms today who oppose each other are both UN member nations (US/UK and Russia) "sitting at the table speaking lies to each other".)

    (28) “And he will go back to his land with a great amount of goods, and his heart will be against the holy covenant. He will act effectively and go back to his land." (UN will be against God's Kingdom once it is in power.)

    (29,30a) “At the time appointed he will return and come against the south. But this time will not be as it was before, for the ships of Kitʹtim will come against him, and he will be humbled.

    (30b) “He will go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant. And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature." (UN attacks religions, first hypocritical religious institutions. The great tribulation begins. Sincere worshippers will also have a difficult time.)

    (31) “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation." (The two kings (and others) give the UN more power.)

    (32-35) “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively. And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many. And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days. But when they are made to stumble, they will be given a little help; and many will join with them by means of smooth speech. And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed. (The appointed time is 3 1/2 years for the great tribulation, when the UN rules as dominant world power. True worship will be refined during this time.)

    (36-39) “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place. He will show no regard for the God of his fathers; nor will he show regard for the desire of women or for any other god, but he will magnify himself over everyone. But instead he will give glory to the god of fortresses; to a god that his fathers did not know he will give glory by means of gold and silver and precious stones and desirable things. He will act effectively against the most fortified strongholds, along with a foreign god. He will give great glory to those who give him recognition, and he will make them rule among many; and the ground he will apportion out for a price. (The UN will exalt themself over all gods.)

    (40-43) “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and horsemen and many ships; and he will enter into the lands and sweep through like a flood. He will also enter into the land of the Decoration, and many lands will be made to stumble. But these are the ones that will escape out of his hand: Eʹdom and Moʹab and the main part of the Amʹmon·ites. And he will keep thrusting out his hand against the lands; and as regards the land of Egypt, she will not escape. And he will rule over the hidden treasures of gold and silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt. And the Libʹy·ans and the E·thi·oʹpi·ans will be at his steps."

    (44,45) “But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him. (The UN attempts to stamp out all worship of God, but will be destroyed by God's Kingdom.)

  • joey jojo
  • PetrW

    @EP to Daniel 11


    Hippolytus of Rome: Commentary on Daniel (S. 167, pdf)

    47.6. But Scripture says, “And the kings shall speak lies to one another at one table.” 6 For Ptolemy desired the kingdom of Alexander and ate with him at his table, but he thought evil and did not have agreement with him. And so Scripture was fulfilled. 47.7. And at this point Ptolemy, having come to Egypt and having levied a great army, came to the country when Alexander had gone to Cilicia. For it happened at that time that Tarsus and Mallus 7 were thrown into confusion. He wished to repress them and came against them in haste, having left his own wife Cleopatra there.


    “As regards these two kings, their heart will be inclined to do what is bad, and they will sit at one table speaking lies to each other. But nothing will succeed, because the end is yet for the time appointed."

    (The two major Roman empire-descended/Christendom kingdoms today who oppose each other are both UN member nations (US/UK and Russia) "sitting at the table speaking lies to each other".)


    The problem with modern variants, historicizing interpretations of Daniel and chapter 11 in the 21st century is that from a certain point in the narrative they have to begin to "fast-forward" to today's times, rather than the documented Hyppolytus at the beginning of the 3rd century.

    If Jesus comes at the end of the 23rd century, the role of the UN, or Russia, for example, can be left out in the interpretation of Daniel. But again, this will have to be "pushed" deeper into the text of chapter 11 and the rest updated to the circumstances of the past 21st, 22nd and part of the 23rd century...

    What am I saying? I mean to suggest that historicizing interpretations lead nowhere - they are more a manifestation of exegetical arbitrariness, often unwittingly taken in large part from Hyppolytus of Rome in particular. They are very popular, and I have encountered virtually no text in which anyone has expressed - from the beginning - their own biblical reasoning without having to draw on Hyppolytus of Rome or its subvarieties. So far, everyone has needed those Antiochians, Ptolemies, Cleopatra, or Romans.

    Okay, the critique has been made. So, who's the king of the north and the king of the south?

    Since the "bar" of claims for interpretation of Daniel is set very low by Hyppolytus, I'm not trying to make a big deal. So just briefly:

    I count 10 kings of the North and only two kings of the South. Therefore, I see the main thrust of the interpretation in those passages in Daniel and Revelation where it talks about the 10 fingers or 10 horns and the final battles between the 10 horns (Dan 7:24 ff).

    All geographical remarks and relationships are symbolic in nature, the meaning of which derives from biblical realities: e.g., Egypt - existed in biblical times, but in eschatology, this symbol plays the role of a competitor to God's people. It is a symbol for an organized, hostile, and murderous system, the same as Sodom (see Rev. 11:8).

    Details later.

  • EasyPrompt

    @PetrW, the verse 27 of Daniel 11 about the "two kings sitting at one table telling lies" cannot be talking about Ptolemy and Cleopatra or about anything during the Maccabees period (which is what the Hippolytus of Rome article you linked seems to imply) because the context of Daniel chapter 11 clearly shows that verse 27 takes place way later than the time Hippolytus describes.

    (Just as a reference point, Jesus as Leader of the covenant is "broken" in verse 22. The things in verse 27 happen later than that in the stream of time.)

    Hippolytus cannot offer truth, because his writings are just as corrupt as the writings of the WTBT$ governing body. (Have you read the "Apostolic Tradition"? Sounds a like another form of the "Organized to Do God's Will" book or something. A bunch of made-up doctrines of men mixed together with a few scriptures in order to exalt imperfect men in way opposed to the Christ.)

    You can't go to old apostates for clarification on scriptures. Hippolytus wrote a lot about Daniel, but he didn't know what he was talking about.

  • PetrW


    I haven't studied the consensus/difference between you and Hyppolite in detail. Only: when I read what all those Antiochus, Ptolemaic, or various Cleopatras were doing, I knew where the wind was blowing from.

    I think there's still a lot of Hyppolite in you.

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    The King that breaks the covenant is the Antichrist. The Watchtower obsesses over Daniel 11 which is a very difficult chapter with identities of the kings changing all the time. Why don't We concentrate on the book of Revelation which is easier to understand? Beast, mark of the beast image of the beast

  • EasyPrompt

    Daniel 11:30-45 parallels Revelation's description of the UN attacking Babylon the Great...

    Revelation 17:15-18

    "He said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. And the ten horns that you saw and the wild beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire. For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished. And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."

    It is also paralleled by these other accounts in other chapters of Daniel about the UN attacking religion...

    Daniel 7:19-21 "Then I wanted to know more about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others; it was extraordinarily fearsome, with iron teeth and copper claws, and it was devouring and crushing, and trampling down what was left with its feet; and about the ten horns on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking arrogantly and whose appearance was bigger than that of the others. “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them."

    Daniel 7:24,25 "As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings. He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time."

    Daniel 8:9-12 "Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration. It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. And an army was given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success."

    Daniel 8:19,23-25 "Then he said: “Here I am causing you to know what will happen in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end...And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings will stand up. His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand."

    Daniel 12:7,11 "It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish...“And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days."

    And again the attack of the UN on religion is depicted in Revelation 13...

    Revelation 13:5-10 "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven. It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones."

    The "mark of the beast" means looking to the UN to fix all the world's problems during that time of the 3 1/2 year great tribulation. It means thinking that the nations can solve things instead of God, and acting like the nations can solve things instead of God. Being "marked for survival" means continuing to look to God's Kingdom during the time of the 3 1/2 year great tribulation. It means obeying Christ as King during that time and being willing to put God's commands ahead of the doctrines and commands of men, even if we face captivity or other reproach. "God is Love" and the mark of a true Christian is showing love.

  • PetrW

    @Ray Frantz

    I agree with you that this is a very difficult chapter. I see the main problem there is that no time frames are given. It is possible to infer length from the fact that one king succeeds another, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that changes could have taken place very quickly. Or: some events could have lasted longer, others shorter.

    The only clue in most of Daniel's visions, is in the resemblance to a definite end. This would then mean that, for example, chapter 11 does not take up, say, 2500 years, but perhaps only a few decades, because it is supposed to end before a generation passes. If it were to take 2500 years, as EasyPrompt suggests, it would be such a super-overlapping generation 😎... But, these are just my thoughts, I'm not making it dogma.

    More on Revelation: I think only an interpretation of Revelation that allows for general, timeless validity is correct. That interpretation must apply to either the 5th or 23rd century.

    Example: if I argue that the two-horned beast, are - I'm deliberately overstating this now - the Berlin Philharmonic, then they didn't exist in the 5th century, and no one knows if they will in the 23rd century. The two-horned animal could be, for example, the Paris Philharmonic..😊😎

    To me, the answer is hidden/revealed in the text of Revelation and especially in the New Testament. Staying with the two-horned animal, if it is identified as a false prophet, then it is good to look at who and under what circumstances was identified as a false prophet, false witness or antichrist (see for example Matt 7:15 or 2 Peter 2:1)

    This leads to looking for the equivalent in the NT. I assume that the two horned animal is a symbol for the two high priests who form the horns and who condemned Christ, that the "body" is the Sanhedrin, that the eyes and ears of the animal, were the Pharisees who were constantly watching what the tribe was doing on the Sabbath or listening to Jesus speak. They were also the "feet" of the animal because they were constantly following him.

    Knowing how such a two-horned animal treated Christ and the apostles, and the warning that false prophets would also come out of Christians, it is easy to understand that it doesn't matter what denomination, it will take the "flesh" of the two-horned animal. If in the 5th century, it was Catholics, then in the 23rd century it may be JWs. Who knows? 😁

    The bottom line is that it's not names that are being sought, but roles and relationships. After all, as in the Sanhedrin they weren't all bad (see Joseph of Arimathea), it's not for us to make judgements. By what judgment do you judge...😎

    That's how I think of it.

Share this