For XJWBill - about the Evil Christianity

by Norm 15 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  outnfree

  I find myself agreeing with Norm and Tina, despite being moved by XJWBill's plea, in effect to "say it isn't so!"

  I have recently begun a Bible study class in a non-denominational Christian church called "Experiencing God." The workbook was written by a Baptist minister who apparently works in British Columbia, Canada and a cohort who designed the Exercises.

  Now, I have felt very comfortable at this church which I selected as my alternative to the Kingdom Hall, until I got a closer look at the mindset of some of its members.

  I have mentioned this on chat, but a recent study lesson asked the following:

  How close do you think your country is to the judgment of God? Check one.

  1. I do not believe God will bring judgment on my country.
  2. I believe God's judgment is a long way off.
  3. I cannot understand why God has waited this long. I believe we are on the verge of a major judgment from God.
  4. I believe we are already experiencing a disciplinary judgment like that described in Isaiah 5:1-7.
  5. I believe we have already come through an experience of God's judgment.

  What evidence can you list to support your answer?
  What effect does your belief have on the way you live your life?

  I answered Number One. It was not the expected answer and raised eyebrows in my "quad." (The class was broken down into smaller groups in order to discuss these things more intimately).

  I believe that all political entities are transient. If the entire earth belongs to Almighty God (as the Bible teaches) then individual nations need not fear judgment. Rather, individual Christians should. To me, those claiming to be Christians and not living a Christ-like existence would be those who needed to fear judgment. Primary to a Christlike existence is loving God and loving neighbor as oneself.

  As Norm (and Bill) demonstrated above, many who claimed to be Christ's disciples did not practice Christ's Way, making Christianity a hollow excuse for a religion supposedly based on love.

  At my class, I was chastised because the God of the Bible was seen to be the judgmental Yahweh of the OT, who had judged nations in the past many, many times, devoting them to destruction, or, in the case of chosen Israel, allowed bad things to happen to them as punishment. (This even happened once since Christ's day -- when Jerusalem fell to the Romans and temple service was ended.) One student even had the take that the reason for WWII was that GERMANY had become faithless, so the other Christian nations had to punish her as an expression of God's wrath.

  This discouraged me no end! (BTW, the majority of students chose #'s 3 & 4 as their answers.) The others were praying for a Great Revival in the U.S. beginning with President Bush and Attorney General John Ashcroft, both professing Christians. Why? So the U.S. would escape adverse judgment.

  When I still politely disagreed, I was chastised. Judgment is foretold. Judgment had been wreacked on those who went against God in the past. Judgment will come! (And how could I not clearly see that from the Scriptures as 'all Scripture is God-breathed, etc."? -- I nearly choked!)

  It would be lovely, indeed, if Christianity today preached tolerance and understanding based on the words of Jesus that Bill set out for us above. But I fear Norm has the more realistic take on the matter. If the people at my local church had their way, Christianity would be the State Religion not only in this country but worldwide.
  And I truly fear for what those with dissenting viewpoints would undergo as citizens.

  Perhaps Norm didn't go far enough, Bill. History demonstrates that horrible crimes have been committed in the name of OTHER religions worldwide as well.

  But that doesn't excuse Christendom and its lemming-like adherents from culpability for the evil perpetuated in the name of Christianity! And there is No getting around that fact.

  And Norm is right, too, that people like Mother Teresa are considered exceptionally GOOD in spite of their religion. She helped the poverty stricken in India NO MATTER THEIR RELIGION. No bias. Just love and compassion. Looked, in fact, for those most in need of love and compassion.

  Love and compassion were NOT what was expressed at that workshop, which was considering "God's Plans versus Our Plans." Too often humans confuse the two.

  And THAT has been the folly of Christian religionists down through history.

  outnfree
• 

  GinnyTosken

  From what I’ve read in this thread, XJWBill created a false dilemma. Norm did not say “All Christians are evil,” nor do I recall him saying that Christianity had no redeeming goodness in it. The original discussion was about Christianity as a force for evil.

  For me, such a discussion makes little sense unless you define your terms. What is Christianity? What is evil?

  XJWBill sorted through some possible meanings in his post. In my comments about Christianity that follow, I am referring to “a system of thought and belief.” This is precarious, too, since Christianity seems to mean different things to different people. In discussions with my Christian friends, I have learned to ask, “What does Christianity mean to you?” The response is usually similar to XJWBill’s, loving one’s neighbor as oneself, self-sacrifice, and altruism. While I have reservations about self-sacrifice and altruism, I’m all for love and compassion. Yet, one need not be a Christian to practice love and compassion.

  The Christian belief that Bill did not mention, and the one that usually leads to genocide and intolerance, is that only those who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved:

  because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)

  There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

  XJWBill also said:

  The guiding idea at the core of Nazism was overweening pride--the self-aggrandizement of the German people in general, and the National Socialist party in particular, at the expense of all other peoples and parties. Its selfish and hate-filled philosophy, if you can call it that, harked backed to that of Nietzche and other immodest, atheistic, ego-worshipping thinkers who essentially declared that only a “superman” or a superior race was fit to enjoy freedom and domination of the world, while all other men, inferior and servile, ought and must be subservient, sacrificing their freedom, industry, and lives for the benefit of the few.

  The guiding idea at the core of Christianity is self-sacrificing love, an idea that masks the belief that Christians are aggrandized by God as a special group at the expense of all other peoples and religions. In a philosophy based on love of one’s neighbor, only one chosen group will survive to enjoy heaven or paradise (insert reward of choice here); all others will suffer eternal death or hell (insert punishment of choice here).

  I have been discussing Christianity with an old friend of mine. I wrote to him:

  I keep stretching to understand why it seems so important to you that I accept the Bible and Jesus. We've talked before about the message, and I think we agree on the core. Love one another, be kind and show compassion to yourself and to your fellow man. The only part of Christianity I find objectionable is when people use the Bible as a weapon to condemn and coerce others. For people who use the Bible in this way, it seems to me that turnabout is fair play. If one wants to cite the Bible as an authority and apply it to the letter, at least be consistent and apply it all.

  He answered:

  It seems important to me that you believe for two reasons. The first is that I honestly believe that the Christian story is the truth concerning humans and the one true God and his son, Jesus Christ, who was sent out of love as God's messenger to us and who ultimately gave his life so that we may live. If you really believe this, and I do, then it's important that those you love also believe it, because it's a matter of life and death.

  The belief that I must believe in Jesus Christ or die is, for me, the evil, intolerant force of Christianity. No matter how compassionate, kind, or loving I may be, I am lost, doomed to eternal death, unless I believe.

  Ginny

  [Edited to correct "If one wants cite" to "If one wants to cite."]
• 

  Kent

  Hi Bill,

  You said to Norm:

  Blanket statements like these, and like yours, are almost always false.

  Fact is, I can't see what you're driving at. Your example of saying "All blacks are dirty, All Mexicans are lazy", etc - is just crap, and you know it.

  I've heard some idiots say Religion, and Christianity especcially, is like Nazi- religion. I agree with the ones denying that! The Nazis were newer that bad! After all, they were even christians themselves!

  Yakki Da

  Kent
  Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
  http://watchtower.observer.org
• 

  XJWBill

  Howdy Norm,

  Your survey of Christian intolerance is very good, but you omit the diatribes of John Chysostom against the Jews, the burning of the Library at Alexandria, the damnation clauses of the Athanasian Creed, the extermination of the Albigenses, the Spanish Inquisition, the conquest of Mexico and Peru, and the sack of Constantinople. You also fail to include Lord Acton's observation that "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely."

  All these misdeeds are well known, and are indeed cause for shame to those who bear the name of Christ. I have no quarrel with the historical record, nor indeed with your sense of outraged justice, which I share.

  My objection still stands, however, to your original statement that "Christianity is an evil force." That overreaching statement ignores the other side of the ledger--the immense good that Christian belief and Christian people have done and continue to do, despite all the misuse and misapplication of Christian teachings.

  Your survey completely ignores the good side of the Christian religion through the centuries--the preservation of learning, the promotion of art and music, the tempering of justice with mercy, the protection of the weak against the strong, the succor of the poor, the weak, the sick, and the friendless, the rule of law, the abolition of slavery, the elevation of the status of women, the concept of social justice, and many other things so familiar to us moderns that we take them for granted, forgetting that their origins were in Christian thought and teaching.

  When I brought up the American Constitution, I momentarily forgot that you are from Norway (your English is excellent), so perhaps the analogy is not quite clear for you. However, your ancestors (and, by the way, some of mine) were the rapacious Norsemen who put half of Europe to sword and flame, at the behest of no Christian God.

  Would it not, therefore, be as silly and illogical of me to conclude that Norway is an "evil force" as much as your conclusion about Christianity?

  The problem is, your assertion goes both too far and not far enough at the same time. Either you must limit your condemnation of Christianity to particular places and times--or you must go on to say that "Humanity is an evil force." We could produce plenty of historical and current facts to prove that. (Present company excepted, of course.)

  Christians indeed went from being a persecuted minority to being the dominant culture, spawning in Europe a legacy of anti-Semitism. But that is flawed human nature, not Christian teaching, at work (see Lord Acton's comment again).

  We see the same sort of thing at work now in the modern Israelis--from being a persecuted minority,they in their own land are in constant conflict with the Palestinians, who feel very tyrannized, apparently. The mutual slaughters of Hindus and Muslims in India at the time of Partition, and since, are another example of mankind's wicked impulses--xenophobic and utterly tribal--at work.

  And from there we could go on to survey a myriad of conlicts, past and present, on every continent, an including societies that officially renounce all religious belief. The history of the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, and other states shows that atheism is certainly no sure path to sweetness and light.

  If you must call Christianity evil, you must also call humankind evil.

  And you would be right, to a certain point. As I have said before, all things human are a mixture of good and bad. The purpose of religion is to lead us toward the ultimate good, not of ourselves and our "tribe" only, but those good things that transcend our human weaknesses, selfish impulses, and egocentric desires.

  And if you cannot or will not admit that goodness exists in Christianity and all the other religions that teach the often-ignored Golden Rule, then I would tremble to live in a society ruled by folks like yourself--for no society that depends upon the natural, innate goodness and justice of human nature alone would long remain either good or just. Such utopias have been tried, and have all failed miserably.

  Jelly's comment is very much to the point: the reason for all the bloodshed and intolerance is man's irreligious desire for power, control, or simply for a good fight. Not to omit greed for wealth.

  Well, Norm, I doubt that either of us is going to convince or convert the other, so let us agree to disagree. We could use up many kilobytes disputing all these things that have been well covered elsewhere by greater minds than yours or mine.

  All that I have already stated in this and previous posts is a sufficient answer to your dogmatic assertions. And I believe that your sense of outraged justice is in fact God at work in you, though you do not, I'm sure, think so.

  To do justice and love kindness is, in my view, part of the chief obligation of enlightened men. Can we agree on this one point? If so, then let me close with Wesley's words, "Is thy heart as my heart? Then, come, friend, give me thy hand."

  Peace,

  Bill

  "If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)
• 

  Norm

  Hello Again Bill,

  You said:

  Howdy Norm,

  Your survey of Christian intolerance is very good, but you omit the diatribes of John Chysostom against the Jews, the burning of the Library at Alexandria, the damnation clauses of the Athanasian Creed, the extermination of the Albigenses, the Spanish Inquisition, the conquest of Mexico and Peru, and the sack of Constantinople. You also fail to include Lord Acton's observation that "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely."

  I “omitted” much, much more than that for the obvious reason of the length of the post.

  All these misdeeds are well known, and are indeed cause for shame to those who bear the name of Christ. I have no quarrel with the historical record, nor indeed with your sense of outraged justice, which I share.

  Good.

  My objection still stands, however, to your original statement that "Christianity is an evil force." That overreaching statement ignores the other side of the ledger--the immense good that Christian belief and Christian people have done and continue to do, despite all the misuse and misapplication of Christian teachings.

  Sigh, What possible immense good has Christianity ever done Bill? We have now covered 100% of it’s history and we have seen that not until we could free ourselves from the clutches of it’s evil power were we able to progress to our present democratic societies. What do we constantly hear from Christians? We hear that we must “return” to Christian “values”, etc. Well, we have seen those “values”. We don’t want those values, they are bad. The fight against the evil of Christianity must still continue Bill, the evil forces still want their power back so they can enforce their dark age rule upon us again. In many countries it isn’t more than 50-60 years since the people has been able to wrestle themselves free from the clutches of the Churches.
  In many conservative Catholic countries like Poland and Ireland, the Church still has far too much power. There simply isn’t any “immense” good there to consider, Bill.
  It is all in your mind.

  Your survey completely ignores the good side of the Christian religion through the centuries--the preservation of learning, the promotion of art and music, the tempering of justice with mercy, the protection of the weak against the strong, the succor of the poor, the weak, the sick, and the friendless, the rule of law, the abolition of slavery, the elevation of the status of women, the concept of social justice, and many other things so familiar to us moderns that we take them for granted, forgetting that their origins were in Christian thought and teaching.

  Well, again considering their history up to this day, there simply isn’t any good sides to ignore Bill. Whatever good Christians do today is usually to boost their lousy image from the past, it is done for the wrong reasons and it is too little too late. Again if you look at history Christianity was against science, art, music, everything they for their perverted reasons considered sinful. Justice and mercy is as history has demonstrated almost non existent. There was nothing like that for the thousands of witches and “heretics” they butchered. The abolition of slavery was only accomplished in the face of fierce resistance from Christianity. It was exactly the same with the emancipation of women, which was strongly opposed all the way by Christianity. Your feeble attempt’s to make Christianity take credit for those civil rights amounts to nothing more than a gross falsification of history. It was the humanistic enlightenment that was able to bring about all those admirable changes while opposed by Christianity all the way. Christianity had no problems with slavery and the suppression of women, the Bible is full of support for both practices.

  When I brought up the American Constitution, I momentarily forgot that you are from Norway (your English is excellent), so perhaps the analogy is not quite clear for you. However, your ancestors (and, by the way, some of mine) were the rapacious Norsemen who put half of Europe to sword and flame, at the behest of no Christian God.

  Sigh, Bill, please. Your ignorance of history seem limitless. When Norway was Christened, which by the way was done in the most savage way possible, the Viking era was over. Do try to get at least some facts straight before you engage in such debates.

  Would it not, therefore, be as silly and illogical of me to conclude that Norway is an "evil force" as much as your conclusion about Christianity?
  The problem is, your assertion goes both too far and not far enough at the same time. Either you must limit your condemnation of Christianity to particular places and times--or you must go on to say that "Humanity is an evil force." We could produce plenty of historical and current facts to prove that. (Present company excepted, of course.)

  Humans are unfortunately very easily lead and we have seen the results of that when they submit to superstition and follow religious leaders and churches. But I do not buy the Christian idea that man is sinful and bad. Humanity as such cannot be considered evil like Christianity.

  Christians indeed went from being a persecuted minority to being the dominant culture, spawning in Europe a legacy of anti-Semitism. But that is flawed human nature, not Christian teaching, at work (see Lord Acton's comment again).
  We see the same sort of thing at work now in the modern Israelis--from being a persecuted minority,they in their own land are in constant conflict with the Palestinians, who feel very tyrannized, apparently. The mutual slaughters of Hindus and Muslims in India at the time of Partition, and since, are another example of mankind's wicked impulses--xenophobic and utterly tribal--at work.

  Yes, it is the ugly and evil effects of religion we can see in such conflicts. When Christianity was in charge this was much worse. Christianity haven’t got a monopoly on evil, many other religions has demonstrated their very harmful effect on people.

  And from there we could go on to survey a myriad of conlicts, past and present, on every continent, an including societies that officially renounce all religious belief. The history of the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, and other states shows that atheism is certainly no sure path to sweetness and light.
  If you must call Christianity evil, you must also call humankind evil.

  Ideologies, like religion has a very bad history. The two examples you mention above are excellent proof of that. But still, they weren’t able to match Christianity.

  And you would be right, to a certain point. As I have said before, all things human are a mixture of good and bad. The purpose of religion is to lead us toward the ultimate good, not of ourselves and our "tribe" only, but those good things that transcend our human weaknesses, selfish impulses, and egocentric desires.

  And if you cannot or will not admit that goodness exists in Christianity and all the other religions that teach the often-ignored Golden Rule, then I would tremble to live in a society ruled by folks like yourself--for no society that depends upon the natural, innate goodness and justice of human nature alone would long remain either good or just. Such utopias have been tried, and have all failed miserably.

  Well, Christians keep telling us that it is good, but as usual we will have to consider what they do, not what they say. And so far their actions speak volumes. I belong to the humanist tradition, the tradition that has gotten us where we are today, living in democracies with civil rights and civilized law, which was unthinkable only 200 years ago. You really make an incredibly ignorant comment above, I quote: I would tremble to live in a society ruled by folks like yourself--for no society that depends upon the natural, innate goodness and justice of human nature alone would long remain either good or just. Such utopias have been tried, and have all failed miserably. In what planet do you live Bill? The Society, in Europe at least is today largely ruled by people like me. We tried Christian rule for 1800 years, that wasn’t utopia, it was a nightmare.

  Well, Norm, I doubt that either of us is going to convince or convert the other, so let us agree to disagree. We could use up many kilobytes disputing all these things that have been well covered elsewhere by greater minds than yours or mine.

  I am not trying to convert you to anything but I am trying to encourage you to think, Bill.
  It wouldn’t do you any harm to sit down and really go through a couple of good critical books about Church history and history in general.

  All that I have already stated in this and previous posts is a sufficient answer to your dogmatic assertions. And I believe that your sense of outraged justice is in fact God at work in you, though you do not, I'm sure, think so.
  To do justice and love kindness is, in my view, part of the chief obligation of enlightened men. Can we agree on this one point? If so, then let me close with Wesley's words, "Is thy heart as my heart? Then, come, friend, give me thy hand."

  Peace,
  Bill

  I am sure we would be able to conduct ourselves in a civilized manner should our paths cross.
  I understand it is very disturbing and new to you to have your religion exposed for what it is, but that’s life. Facts are some times unpleasant.

  Take care

  Norm.
• 

  terraly

  Hi Norm,

  I agree with you that Christianity has been a vehicle for evil, but I don't accept that it is fundamentally to blame for the fact that people are rotten to each other.

  Ideologies, like religion has a very bad history. The two examples you mention [Soviet Union and People's Republic of China] above are excellent proof of that. But still, they weren’t able to match Christianity.

  Humans are unfortunately very easily lead and we have seen the results of that when they submit to superstition and follow religious leaders and churches. But I do not buy the Christian idea that man is sinful and bad. Humanity as such cannot be considered evil like Christianity.

  Where do these evil ideologies and religions come from in the first place? "From a few evil humans" you might say, but I disagree. It takes a lot of people to institute evil policies in the first place, and a lot of people not really bothered by evil to maintain them.

  The history of mankind, pre-Christian and even today (which is sometimes considered Post-Christian) is the history of people being mean to each other. There have been wars which are not caused by religions or ideologies, there has been persecution of minority groups as far back as man could first pick up a stone to whack someone else.

  It goes even further back, just look at ants if you want an example of cultural intolerance and violence.

  What we consider evil- violence and cruelty and, yes, clinging tightly to those who are "like us" while fearing and hating everyone else, is observed all the time in nature. Does this necessarily mean that we humans are also evil? Well, no, but one has only to look at history to see that we have extended the lesson in savage cruelty handed to us by nature. Religion, including Christianity, has been but one of tools used to do this.

  You don't need a concept of original sin to explain evil- survival of the fittest works just fine. We've had a long way to grow up, and I think we're doing an ok job.

  Does this mean that religion is intrinsically evil? No, just a wonderful tool for the job. Things get a bit mixed up when religion moved from pure "die bravely in battle and you'll feast with the gods" to "love your neighbor". The words didn't really fit with what people wanted to use religion for, so they ignored it.