Child sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice

by Whynot 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Perry

    Pistoff: The idea of a sacrifice by Jesus is only valid if god

    is in the background demanding blood and death.

    Exactly. Shocking? Hardly. This is what God has stated as the price of life from the very beginning. It is no secret. God himself provided the first animal sacrifice to cover Adam in the form of animal skins. Adams pitiful efforts to cover himself were done with fig leaves. So we see both mans efforts and what God requires for sin to be properly covered right there in the Garden of Eden.

    The wages of sin is death. Like it or not, that is the Law. But notice how that the death penalty does not necessarily have to be your own. That is a little loophole with big implications.

    Now, before someone cries out in outrage, claiming unfairness and brutality; consider that there are inmates on death row right now where the State Justice system is "demanding blood and death", same as God does.

    Predictably, the inmates many times are in disagreement with the justice system. They see that their life still has value. They reason that they are still capable of various forms of good works etc. However, what governs their fate is not their own biased reasoning, but what the Law states.

    So, while we live in societies that mirror God's justice in the requirement of blood, and we willingly give our support to such law and order, God's requirement for perfection may seem unreasonable to us, the inmates seemingly running the asylum. Like the protesting inmate on death row, our biased reasoning is not what dictates our fate. The Law is what dictates our fate. A death must occur. But whose?

    Jesus knew that to accept his substitutional sacrifice a person would have to FIRST atom bomb their own Ego, Pride, and personal estimations of justice. This would create a sharp divide in how Jesus was perceived, hence his prediction here:

    “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

    So, while the Law "is what it is"; the ultimate response of God to sin is NOT JUDGMENT, but MERCY:

    But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Hebrews 9:26

    I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” John 6:51

    “…waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.” Titus 2:13-14

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16

    “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him. “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.” John 12:24-27

    For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.” Luke 19:5, 9-10

    “For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.” Ephesians 2:14-18

    The purpose of Jesus sacrifice is abundantly clear.

  • Whynot

    Someone brought to my attention that sacrifices were man's idea not God's. Also that Jesus' ransom sacrifice was the invention of 2nd or 3rd century Christians.

    I haven't done the research yet.

  • Crazyguy

    It is a complete contradiction and jesus was a new god to replace any old gods. They the inventors of jesus probably never read that scripture. Many scriptures in the New Testament are a direct contradiction to the Old Testament. Marcion didn’t like the old gods at all and said there was no way the Old Testament god could be the father of jesus. The New Testament in my opinion evolved over time and reflected some of these ideas.

  • cofty

    A capricious deity propitiated by the sight of a broken and bleeding corpse.

    The core of christianity is no different from every other ancient death-cult.

  • Ireneus


    Wonderful comment

  • Perry


    I think comparing ritual human sacrifice to a legally ordained death penalty for crimes is absurd.

    This judge just issued the death penalty to a man who killed a police officer when he was pulled over for a traffic violation. Would you be just as willing to compare this man to your Mezo-American blood lust cartoon? I'm curious.

    Criteria for imposition of the death penalty varies from state to state in the United States. There is not uniform agreement. So, if we vary among ourselves, is it surprising the God's criteria might be different than ours, especially if that agreement implicates our own guilt? Like I mentioned before, the rules for the death penalty are probably no where more widely disagreed upon than with those on death row. Not surprising. We are born on death row, in case you haven't noticed. We all die.

    Moving on, Jesus was both God and son of Mary. Scripture indicates that this ONE AND ONLY human sacrifice was thought of by God the father, true. But, don't forget that Jesus, the Man had a choice too. He could have said no. "But for the joy that was set before him".... well you know the rest.

    No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. John 10-16

    Is it not better for one man to die than for an entire species to die? Especially if he had authority to take it up again?

  • venus

    What we need is the insight like that of Jeremiah who defined circumcision as 'removal of foreskins of one's heart' (Jeremiah 4:4)

    Similarly, sacrifice was of the ego, the brute within, which was later deteriorated into animal sacrifice and human sacrifice.

    God would only ask for sacrifice of vices. Sacrifice of any other things was devised by the vested interests.

  • Half banana
    Half banana

    Perry you are imagining that the words of the Bible are actually true and meaningful!

    They are most certainly words from leaders of religious cults over time. At least Venus sees them as metaphor-- but we can go deeper. To understand the texts selected by the religious authorities it is necessary to be sceptical and not gullible religious consumers, fearful of displeasing an unknowable deity.

    What the Bible says about sacrifice is drawn entirely from secular pagan folk belief.

    God has never spoken or given dictation hence when the BIble says "God says" with reference to child sacrifice it was "a thing which never came into my mind", they were the words cult leaders used to inform their devotees of the new turn in contemporary dogma.

    To be more specific, the Phoenicians were cheek by jowl neighbours of Israel sharing their religious superstitions. Israel were enormously influenced by them. It was the Phoenicians who probably introduced them the Canaanite pantheon including Yahweh, which Israel took on as their totemic god. Unlike the economically hamstrung Israelites they were successful seafarers and traders in the Mediterranean-- but like Israel, also practitioners of child sacrifice. Having seen a Phoenician topheth (a place of burning) on a small island off the coast of Sicily, I could not feel other than overwhelming pity for the ignorance of our forebears. Imagine that deliberately sacrificing your child could have benefits? Clearly pagan ritual also included adult human sacrifice as the most potent ritual to balance the spirits of the tribe. Only by this revolting precedent could any later parallel for the benefits of Jesus' sacrifice have any symbolic meaning.

    Christian belief is built fairly and squarely on pagan and astrological motifs. It was only after the unscrupulous Roman Imperial rule sanctified the Bible and Christianity in the fourth century to bolster its influence, that the pagan source documents of Christian texts were proscribed and destroyed. This programme began in the late fourth century under the 'Christian' soldier Emperor Theodosius l, who was the first emperor to accede to the demands of church authority and the last to the Eastern and Western empire together.

    However by proscription and destruction of the pagan sources of the new Catholic Bible and Christ doctrine, it does not mean the folk myths had not been the foundations of modern Christianity. The notion that one man Jesus died sacrificially for all men is only part of the mumbo-jumbo capitalised on by religion and state to garner political power. Fairy tales have a resonance with our behaviour because they come from a collective human imagination born of common experience-- but that does not make them either sacrosanct or true.

    Sin has no meaning for most people today and that is a good and liberating advance. There is no need for a magical, sacrificial "saviour".

  • Half banana
    Half banana

    omission: Theodosius was the last to hold the Eastern and Western empires together.

  • Perry
    Perry you are imagining that the words of the Bible are actually true and meaningful!

    Hi Half Bananna,

    The initial post assumes that, by citing scripture, hence the possible contradiction that was put forth in the OP.

    Sin has no meaning for most people today and that is a good and liberating advance.

    Until you face a judge of course.


    ... commit an offense, transgress, do wrong, commit a crime, break the law, go astray;

Share this