JW Cart encounter

by Listener 13 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Listener

    I've seen very few carts in Western Australia. The only one I have seen is near the front entrance of the Perth Royal Hospital and on the several occasions that I have seen it, they are there all day, at least during the week.

    I've stopped and had long conversations twice now and both times when I have approached them they've told me to take whatever publications interest me and then we've started talking.

    This last visit I brought up the Royal Commission. There was an Elder and another JW in his 40s. The JW was quick to tell me how the Commission praised them for being so organized. In fact they were the most organized of all organizations because they had copious notes prepared and lists of details.

    I pointed out that they were the worst organization in handling child abuse. Naturally I was told that it was only the opinion of the Commission.

    We had a long discussion. I was told how the cases presented were over 40 years old and little was known about pedophilia then, by anyone. I explained that the JW organization was very different because they have the best guidance ever, the Bible and supposedly were guided by God's HS and surely there was no need to look at how others were handling matters. Maybe it was an indication that they were misunderstanding the Bible in dealing with matters.

    They brought up the two Witness rule and how it was good in that it protected them, this was after telling me earlier on that their priority was in protecting the victim. I brought up the old testament account of the woman in the field, they had nothing to say.

    I was shocked by a number of things they had to say. One of them was when the Elder told me that the victim may be lying. I didn't deny this but I asked him, is that why there are times that the Elders do nothing? He said possibly. I again made my initial point that it was so important to have cases reported to police. The JW thought this was the case and that they were encouraged to do so but the Elder finally told him that they are told to call the Branch for instructions.

    At one stage the Elder mentioned that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't in certain areas. I said that he made it sound like their hands were tied behind their back but it needn't be so if they encouraged reporting.

    The Elder said that he is disturbed by the idea that 'once a pedophile, always a pedophile'. I replied that we should always be on guard and take actions to ensure the safety of children on this basis. He mentioned the idea again and said how disturbing it was. I was really upset about this and I think his attitude was, because as his position as an Elder they want to put a persons past behind if they appear to be repentant. I said it is not up to us to forgive anyone and that is for God to do (he agreed) and putting in place cautionary actions was appropriate. I went into a deeper discussion with him because of this attitude (even though I'm a female talking to two males and would rather not go there). He said that we all make mistakes and let our guard down at times. I said that it is one thing for a man to have sex with a 15 or 16 year old but a completely different matter for that to happen to a young child (5 or 6). It went far beyond an indiscretion when a child was involved, it was evil and twisted and required a very sick mind to do this. We can't comprehend why such a sick mind would do this in the first place. Even though it is not true that all pedophiles will repeat their evilness there is enough reason to be on guard. Thankfully, he conceded on this idea and hopefully I've got him to reconsider his way of thinking. But obviously there's a big problem here if this is the way he thought and the Watchtower has chosen not to discuss the idea of repeat offenders even though they may have been accepted as repentant, it really makes you ask what are they hiding.

    At one stage the Elder explained how he was lucky to be brought up in the Truth and how happy he was with his family situation. This was a thread throughout our discussions of how the organization is the best place to be but I thought it would be a good idea to bring up the shunning policy and how the organization isn't such a wonderful place to be when it breaks up families. I related how it had damaged my family growing up and now it was causing the same damage with my very in sister, who was now shunning her son. I explained how horrible shunning was and particularly whent this happened between family members. The Elder related the 'bad apple' analogy. I said that the organization had every right to kick members out if they chose to. He politely said that I was very confusing because I had previously said how I thought it was wrong. I explained there was a big difference between shunning a person and throwing them out of the congregation. That a disfellowshipped person could still attend meetings whenever they chose, sharing in worshiping by singing and praying with the congregation, whereas shunning meant that a family member could not even make contact to ensure everything was okay or have a friendly cup of coffee together. He didn't have much to say and I said that I hoped they would once again 'flip flop' on their stance, explaining how they had done so in the past.

    We must have talked for at least an hour and when it came to say a friendly good bye, I thanked them for taking the time to discuss issues. The JW, who had been difficult to talk to all the way through said 'well that was a waste of time', even though not ten minutes earlier he said that I knew more about their history than he did and he had been a JW for years. Had I encountered this JW alone and not the Elder I wouldn't have engaged in more than five minutes of discussion and I said to him that I didn't think it was a waste of time because it was good to understand another persons point of view.

    Funny but the JW was pining on getting into a discussion about the Trinity and I could see he was only too ready to rip me apart if I believed in the idea. We did discuss it a little but I wasn't willing to go there. The Elder asked me if I thought the Holy Spirit was an 'individual' I said no, that it flows from God but I also thought that it was being used by Jesus as well, however I was still learning and researching this. The Elder said something along the lines that this may well be right, that it was something worth considering. I was very surprised about this.

  • cha ching
    cha ching

    Great experience, Listener... I always enjoy hearing how witnesses 'reason' when told about the Royal Commission.

    They say, 'the Commission praised them for being so organized'? Sounds like what one woman (a JW) where I work reasoned with me: 'Our literature is printed in over 200 languages,' (which means "that is why we are the true religion, no one else can do that", remember?)

    I wonder if witnesses just hear bits and pieces about the Royal Commission in a talk or letter, but, like the "Society" always does, leaves out the most relevant parts.

    Thanks for sharing, very interesting!


    The Elder said that he is disturbed by the idea that 'once a pedophile, always a pedophile'.

    I`m disturbed that Sick F*cks like him, are in charge of policing JW Pedophiles...

  • smiddy

    An interesting encounter Listener ,i`m on the other side of the continent in East gippsland and I havent come across a JW cart here at all .

    It seemed obvious to me that neither of them had actually seen the videos of the ARC but only relating what they had heard 2nd or 3rd hand.

    The JW was quick to tell me how the Commission praised them for being so organized. In fact they were the most organized of all organizations because they had copious notes prepared and lists of details.

    How he could make this statement boggles the mind.

  • stuckinarut2

    Nice post Listener.

    Maybe something you said will replay in their minds.....and help them awaken....

  • freddo

    Brilliant job Listener - just brilliant.

    Maybe we should praise the Nazis for "being so well organised" in their death camps and commend them on their nice neat uniforms too.

    Whitewashed Graves!

  • The Searcher
    The Searcher

    Well handled Listener. J.W.'s need to be encouraged to seriously consider what they are told by the org - and not just swallow it and regurgitate it for others.

    If ever any J.W. repeats the org's mantra - "that they are told to call the Branch for instructions," I will simply ask them;

    "If a non-J.W. raped your child or wife, if your house caught fire, or if you suffered a heart-attack, would your instincts tell you to 'phone Bethel for advice? Any decent human being knows exactly who they would contact immediately in such situations!"

  • stuckinarut2

    We have now heard several witnesses, including parents say that line about how "the witnesses were the best there at the ARC"

    We simply act shocked and say "what? Where on earth did you hear that? They were categorically condemned as being far from that!"

    But, as usual, the society has done a great job of re-writing history and the facts to all witnesses!

  • Diogenesister
    . The JW was quick to tell me how the Commission praised them for being so organized. In fact they were the most organized of all organizations because they had copious notes prepared and lists of details.

    GASP!!Oh yes we're organized, the most organized organizational organization organized as God's organizational organizations are always organized.
    But we don't worry about child abuse, domestic violence, suicide, mental illness, the death of new mothers/young women, splitting up families, or the care of homeless older Bethelites who have given their whole lives to us in service. No. But we're bloody well organized.

  • nonjwspouse

    The Elder said that he is disturbed by the idea that 'once a pedophile, always a pedophile'.

    My JW mother in law looked at me in complete surprise and disbelief when I said, and agreed with this statement. She couldn't believe that someone could repent this away. I echoed the words of listener about how protecting the children is the priority, and also told her how many time pedophiles will agree with the above statement themselves.

    She was also raised in a dysfunctional family, with her brother a pedophile. We don't know, but possibly her father too. We do know her father abused, but don't know if it went into that area.

    I theorize that the abusive father was the reason her mother brought the family into the JW.

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