This should make most reasonable people stop believing in the Bible as infallible

by ILoveTTATT2 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • ILoveTTATT2

    I think that few parts of the Bible can make you atheist or at least agnostic or at least kill your belief in the Bible as infallible or the work of a loving God as comparing 2 Samuel 24 with 1 Chronicles 21. Most people focus on the 1st verse, but there are at least 4 major and 1 minor contradiction in the chapter (they are parallel accounts).

    In the New World Translation, 2 Samuel 24 starts like this:

    24 And again the anger of Jehovah came to be hot against Israel, when one incited David against them, saying: “Go, take a count of Israel and Judah.”

    Notice that it is an impersonal "one" who incited David to do the census. Other Bibles make it clear that it was Jehovah (YHWH) who incited David to make the census.

    The American Standard version says:

    24 And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah.

    When we look at the parallel account, which is 1 Chronicles 21, we see that it says:
    21 And Satan proceeded to stand up against Israel and to incite David to number Israel.
    WHAT? Was it Satan, or was it Jehovah that incited David to number Israel?

    That should be a major red flag, and countless Bible commentators have tried to explain away this contradiction.
    But that is not the only contradiction in the 1-chapter account.

    In the account, Joab tries to stop the census, but David insists. He goes all around Israel and presents the census results to David:

    (2 Samuel 24:9) 9 Jo′ab now gave the number of the registration of the people to the king; and Israel amounted to eight hundred thousand valiant men drawing sword, and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.

    (1 Chronicles 21:5) 5 Jo′ab now gave the number of the registration of the people to David; and all Israel amounted to a million one hundred thousand men drawing sword, and Judah four hundred and seventy thousand men drawing sword.
    So there are three hundred thousand people missing in one, and 30 thousand in another!

    2 contradictions in the same 1-chapter account.

    David feels bad for having done the census, and Jehovah sends his prophet Gad to punish David (by punishing Israel), and gives him three options:

    (2 Samuel 24:13) 13 Accordingly Gad came in to David and told him and said to him: “Should there come to you seven years of famine in your land, or three months of your fleeing before your adversaries, with them pursuing you, or the occurring of three days of pestilence in your land? Now know and see what I shall reply to the One sending me.”

    (1 Chronicles 21:11, 12) 11 Accordingly Gad went in to David and said to him: “This is what Jehovah has said, ‘Take your pick, 12 whether for three years there is to be a famine; or for three months there is to be a sweeping away from before your adversaries and for the sword of your enemies to overtake [you], or for three days there is to be the sword of Jehovah, even pestilence, in the land, with Jehovah’s angel bringing ruin in all the territory of Israel.’ And now see what I should reply to the One sending me.”

    Three years or seven years? Apparently Gad had a lot of wax in his ears and couldn't understand if Jehovah said 7 or 3. But that's ok, because David chose three days of pestilence. Jehovah kills 70 thousand people, none of which includes David, who was the one that made the mistake. David feels really bad for having others killed because of his mistake, which Jehovah/Satan incited him to do, and he asks Jehovah to stop the plague and punish him and his household. Jehovah listens, and tells David to kill some animals... in sacrifice... so he can stop killing humans. Now, David must go and buy a piece of land and build an altar.

    (2 Samuel 24:18) 18 Later Gad came in to David on that day and said to him: “Go up, set up for Jehovah an altar on the threshing floor of A·rau′nah the Jeb′u·site.”

    (1 Chronicles 21:18) 18 And Jehovah’s angel, for his part, said to Gad to say to David that David should go up to erect an altar to Jehovah on the threshing floor of Or′nan the Jeb′u·site.

    Araunah... Ornan... same thing. Just make sure it's a Jebusite.

    So David proceeds to try and purchase the land from Araunah... one of them... and the owner says to David it's free. David insists, he wants to purchase it. So he pulls out his checkbook and writes a check to... one of them... for the sum of...

    (2 Samuel 24:24) 24 However, the king said to A·rau′nah: “No, but without fail I shall buy it from you for a price; and I shall not offer up to Jehovah my God burnt sacrifices without cost.” Accordingly David bought the threshing floor and the cattle for fifty silver shekels.

    (1 Chronicles 21:24, 25) 24 However, King David said to Or′nan: “No, but without fail I shall make the purchase for the money in full, because I shall not carry what is yours to Jehovah to offer up burnt sacrifices without cost.” 25 So David gave Or′nan for the place gold shekels to the weight of six hundred.

    50..600... gold... silver... it don't matter. Just tiny details, right?

    Even if there weren't all these contradictions, let's see how it portrays God:

    He makes someone do something he doesn't like, and then kills 70 thousand people because the guy did what he incited him to do. Then he asks this guy to kill animals so he can stop killing people.


    Satan makes a guy do something that Jehovah doesn't like. Jehovah punishes, not the guy, but 70 thousand people. Then he asks this guy to kill animals so he can stop killing people.

    Whether you look at the contradictions or the lesson of the story, the Bible is a disgusting book which CANNOT be the work of a loving God, and it is most certainly not infallible.

    What do you think?
  • schnell

    Yeah pretty much. Was Jesus killed at 9 am or noon? The day before passover or afterward?

    And how about that King Josiah? What a guy.

  • schnell
  • Crazyguy

    There also the story of David and Goliath. Does he David really kill Goliath because Saul doesn't seam to know who he is and in one part of the Bible indicates it's not David and even names the other guy. Also Saul offers his daughter to whom ever kills Goliath yet after David does the daughter issue doesn't come up till later when David is offered the daughter yet for another reason.

    Then a real telling part of the story is after David supposedly kills Goliath he goes off to Jerusalem, but wait Jerusalem hasn't been conquered by David and is still under the control of the Jebusites. But it doesn't end there.

    If one looks at Goliath's armor it not armor of a phillistine but of a Greek hoplite soldier of a few hundred years later. In fact some say this kind of armor made in this fashion didn't even exist during this timeline for they lacked the technology.

  • schnell

    Some highlights from the Bible Unearthed:

    * It's well known that Moses did not write the Tanakh and has been for some time. His very existence is questionable as well.

    * Egypt had an extensive defense network along the path the Israelites were said to have taken, and Canaan was a vassal of Egypt at the time.

    * Who are the Israelites after all? Take a wild guess. The book goes onto talk about the Hyksos, etc. That's in there. But what are the Israelites? "The early Israelites were—irony of ironies—themselves originally Canaanites!"

  • schnell

    Think about that last part. The Israelites were Canaanites. Read the book, it's on Scribd if you can get it there and this raises any questions for you.

    But think about it. It lends credence to the idea that Yahweh and Elohim were Israelite forms of Baal.

    It even helps to explain the cultural misogyny as Yahweh/Elohim becomes the dominant deity and he's at war with Ashtoreth, and as Eve and Jezebel are demonized in the resulting sacred texts.

    And speaking of Jezebel, the Bible Unearthed has a LOT to say about the House of Omri and all that it did, and all that was attributed instead to Solomon.

  • jwleaks

    You lost me at "in the beginning."

  • Crazyguy

    Schnell, you mention that the Israelites were in fact originally Canaanites but you forgot to mention that Jehovah was originally the Canaanite God El then the Canaanites switched to primarily worshiping the fertility god Baal Hadad. The Israelites and the Jews did the same but somewhere along the line the Jews seemed to switch back to El or a new god. This new god absorbs all the powers and atributes of the Canaanite gods El, Baal , Ashtore and possibly even Asherah .

  • schnell

    @Crazyguy, hey! Jehovah doesn't change, sir!

    Not even when he goes from a raging tyrant to a God of love in the new testament.

    Not even when when everything terrible he ever did gets attributed to an accuser.

    Not even when he goes from being one god among many acknowledged gods to being the only God.

    Not even when he has a fleshly human son who is mythologized years later as if he were a Greek demigod.

    Not even when he and his son basically become the same thing because there can't be two gods if there's only one.

    And not even when some dorks in 19th century America decide they aren't really the same god after all, and that this Jehovah is sort of a cross product of the god of the old testament and the god of the new testament, a God of Love who'd still kill some disrespectful young kids with bears and end the world even though he regretted doing that before.

  • Vidiot

    @ schnell...

    I've read about the "Isrealites-were-actually-Canaanites-who-rewrote-their-cultural-history" theory.

    It does very neatly explain why there actually seems to be little physical evidence of the Hebrew nation's subjugation by Egypt, 40-year Exodus and exile, and ultimate conquest of Palestine.

Share this