This hit a little too close to home

by mommy 20 Replies latest jw friends

  • think41self
    think41self

    Mommy,

    How sad and frightening. I admit I do not know the answers for dealing with these situations. Obviously, if they actually bring a weapon to school, there is no question they should be suspended. I think they should also receive court ordered therapy! But someone just writing down their thoughts, well, that could go either way. Is the child seriously troubled or depressed? This could indicate whether he had any serious intentions.

    I will say that the principal of that school sounds like a guy with his head on straight. He didn't join in the (sometimes) media generated hysteria and paranoia, and was concerned with the threat, took it seriously and took action to protect the students, but he also expressed great concern for the young man who made the threats, and that he receive proper help. How else could you handle it? He sounds like he has his head on straight.

    I've told my high school student repeatedly that if he ever even hears a joke about bombing the school or shooting people, he's to talk to me about it. We will alert the authorities, because you just can't take the chance! Maybe we should all pack up and move to Switzerland, which seems like a relatively safe place to live. If only it weren't so damn cold.

    think41self

  • jimmyjames
    jimmyjames

    SF Jim,

    I'm having a hard time understanding what it is you're saying. What I'm getting is that it's hypocritical for the faculty to punish kids for carrying out something that's expressed in music they listen to, while also defending their right to listen to that music. (Correct me if that' snot what you meant).

    I don't think it's comparable. First, I don't think all the faculty of all schools DO want to defend that right- a lot of them might feel the same as you. Second, it's one thing to let your hate for a group be known, and quite another to make threats to individuals or come up with a plan to act on that hate. Anyone is free to hate anyone they want to, but acting on it and singling individuals out is something that deserves punishment.

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim

    larc & jimmyjames,
    I think you're not quite getting what I'm trying to say. Let me be clear: Under no circumstances am I condoning threats of violent acts. Those who do so should be punished.
    What I was trying to say, however, is that I find it hypocritically ironic that if one writes these threats down on paper, it's considered a crime. But, if one puts it to "music", then it's considered "artistic license". If one complains about the written threats, there is public outcry that the offender should be castigated. However, if one complains too loudly about the so-called "music" containing violently suggestive lyrics, then it is the complainer who is trashed for "free speech violations".
    This is only my opinion (and I could be wrong not having a master's degree in psychology), but I firmly believe that youth are strongly influenced by the entertainment arts. Just ask Rod Serling and Stephen King, both of whom wrote stories which were shortly thereafter mimiced in real life.

  • jimmyjames
    jimmyjames

    Jim,

    I find it hypocritically ironic that if one writes these threats down on paper, it's considered a crime. But, if one puts it to "music", then it's considered "artistic license".

    It's not writing it down that's the problem. It's that it's directed to a specific named individual or individuals. The violent lyrics of songs are written in the liner notes of CDs all the time. The lyrics are general, not directed at a specific person. (That doesn't necessarily make them any less or more moral, of course). If a song makes actual threats to a certain person, or defames a certain person, they can be sued and punished just as if it were an actual remark in real life.

    It's okay to sing that politicians are swindlers, but something else (libelous and punishable) to say that politician so-and-so is a swindler.

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim

    I'm in complete agreement with you, jimmyjames. What disturbs me is that many in our society view the mention of specific names as a more heinous crime than the suggestion that entire nameless groups of people should be done away with. I mean, these deranged boys had to get their sick ideas from somewhere, right? If they didn't get these ideas direct from the entertainment industry (this can include the news media, by the way), then they were in all likelihood passed along to them from someone else who had the idea fed to them.
    I am worried that if we continue to allow the "artistic" condemnation of nameless individuals and groups of individuals en masse, then we as a society may one day find a way to, for example, justify Adolf Hitler's actions because he did not attack any specific individuals, but rather exterminated "just Jews".

  • thinker
    thinker

    I've given lot of thought to this phenomenon lately. I feel most of the people who commit these vile acts are suicidal. It used to be that the majority of suicidal people went off alone and quietly ended their lives. Now they seem to want to take as many people as possible with them before they do themselves in. Why the change? I don't believe it has anything to do with guns, violence in movies, video games, etc. It has everything to do with the "victimization" attitude. No one seems to want to take responsiblity for their own actions. If something bad happens to you you will find lots of people who will be happy to tell you that it's not your fault, you're just a victim of someone else. When it's someone else's fault it makes it much harder to do something about improving your situation; trying to change others is never as easy as changing yourself. So now when someone gets so depressed as to want to end their life, they feel justified in killing others as well.
    We can pass all kinds of restrictive laws and regulations, but things will not improve until we start teaching people to start taking responsiblity for their own lives.

    thinker

  • thinker
    thinker

    Just recieved this from my mother:

    Let's see if I understand how America works lately . . .
    >
    > If a woman burns her thighs on the hot coffee she was holding in her lap
    > while driving, she blames the restaurant.
    >
    > If your teen-age son kills himself, you blame the rock 'n' roll music or
    > musician he liked.
    >
    > If you smoke three packs a day for 40 years and die of lung cancer, your
    > family blames the tobacco company.
    >
    > If your daughter gets pregnant by the football captain you blame the
    > school for poor sex education.
    >
    > If your neighbor crashes into a tree while driving home drunk, you blame
    the bartender.
    >
    > If your cousin gets AIDS because the needle he used to shoot up with heroin
    was dirty, you blame the government for not providing clean ones.
    > If your grandchildren are brats without manners, you blame television.
    >
    > If your friend is shot by a deranged madman, you blame the gun
    > manufacturer.
    >
    > If a crazed person climbs into the cockpit of an airliner and tries to kill
    the pilots at 35,000 feet and the passengers kill him instead, the mother of
    the deceased blames the airline.
    >
    > I must have lived too long to understand the world as it is anymore.
    >
    > So if I die while my old, wrinkled ass is parked in front of this
    > computer, I want you to blame Bill Gates, OK?

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    Leave it to me to take the contrarian attitude, and it will probably get me in trouble around here. After all, now that thought crimes are being punished in this country, expressing my thoughts here will probably engender hatred toward me.

    First of all, forget what you hear on the media. These school violence events are exceedingly rare. They are not an epidemic. School violence is down overall over the last few years. It's the media that blows it out of proportion, and it's the media that indirectly inspires copycat actions.

    Secondly, real violence in schools is horrific and should be prevented, without a doubt. I'm completely empathetic toward the families of victims. In the case of Columbine, how much better it would have been had the signals been read in advance.

    Thirdly, it's the parents who need to take their responsibility seriously. In the case of Columbine, the parents failed utterly to notice weapons in plain view in their kids room. Then society moans and wails about the school not protecting us, when it was the parents who should be noticing their children and how they act.

    Fourthly, society, in eschewing the obvious causes of these violent acts (mental illness), seek for any other excuse they can find. Music! Yeah, that must have caused it. Movies! Those are horrible and they cause it. Video games! Ban them! Infantile thought processes.

    Fiftly, there is a cult of hero worship in our society whereby the captain of the football team is held up as an example. The fact that the athletes of the school sometimes beat up the "outsiders" of the school escapes notice of the authorities. Then when these "outsiders" finally get fed up and snap (a totally inappropriate response, but we are talking only about those with mental instability enough to snap in those circumstances), society moans and wails about these 'awful violent kids' while ignoring the violence that was foisted upon them by the 'heros' of the school. Kids being picked on at school get shafted twice: First by the bullies, then by society.

    Sixthly, with typical overreaction, society now develops zero-tolerance rules. Five-year-old boy playing touch football says during the game, "I'm gonna kill you" -- suspend him and send him to reform school (actually is happening). The thought police are not a future 1984ish nightmare, they are in America today. Your child is different? Doesn't fit the "norm"? Make him take this test and see if he conforms to society's norms. He doesn't? Keep your eye on him, for "different" = "dangerous." Too bad that the geniuses of history would all have failed such a test and would now be considered dangerous threats.

    Seventhly, the teen of this particular story didn't sound dangerous to me. It sounds as if he was letting off steam in a safe way. Better to write out your feelings than to express them through the use of guns. But no, let's use zero tolerance, teach the kids that they will be jailed for their thoughts, and make sure they keep those emotions bottled up deep inside them with no way to let off the tension until they finally burst. Then we can label them violent monsters and throw the book at them. And feel good that we are being "tough" on crime.

    Lastly, the gun laws in this country contribute to this problem greatly. If it weren't so easy for children to get serious firearms and all the ammunition they can drag along, such occasional violent outbursts of the mentally unstable would be minimized. It's much easier to take down a child with a knife than it is to take down a child with a gun. But will society solve this problem? Of course not, for I got my rights, doggone it! Just lock the little hellions up in jail instead, while I have another beer and watch wrestling.

    Look, I understand the fear the parents would have when such a list of names is found, and I'm not saying nothing should have been done. All I'm saying is that the problem started long ago, and society didn't do a damn thing about it until it reached this point.

    This is a serious societal problem, and I hate that people just want to apply simple, feel-good solutions that accomplish absolutely nothing, but probably teach the "different" kids that they had better conform to society's rules and be good little consumers like the rest of us. For every genuinely mentally instable child that would act on their impules, there are a hundred "different" but mentally stable children that would never act on those impules but will get branded by society as "dangerous" when they are nothing of the kind.

  • jimmyjames
    jimmyjames

    Here's the reason there's been an increase in school violence:

    When Columbine happened, there was a huge amount of media coverage and articles written on it. All kinds of kids that were feeling depressed, suicidal or angry saw what happened. These two guys had not only gotten revenge on their tormentors, they had (in a sense) gotten away with it by offing themselves before they could be caught and punished. Not only that, but while before they were unpopular in the school, now they were on the cover of national magazines and everyone knew their name.

    I think kids saw this quite a bit differently than adults did. It's obvious that suicidal, bullied kids would identify with the two killers rather than the killing victims. They saw a way that they could not only express their anger, get revenge, but also (probably one of the biggest motivators) finally become important, known. Anyone who desperately needs to feel important will do it even if they have to become hated or disliked in the process. If they did what these guys did, they might finally get some attention.

    These increases in school shootings happened after the massive media coverage of Columbine, not because any musical artist came out recently advocating shooting your schoolmates.

    Music definitely influences peoples attitudes and outlook. However, I refuse to believe that it motivates people to go out and shoot each other.

    Even if music did motivate people to shoot each other, it would be obvious to anyone after Columbine that kids were a lot more influenced by things they saw other kids doing. The reason they blame music is because it's an easy scapegoat to avoid dealing with the real problem: that people (parents mostly, but not in every case) need to be involved in kids' lives.

    Thinker:
    That second post of yours was excellent. And right on the point.

    SF Jim:
    I'm sorry, I didn't mean it was just the specificity (is that a word? lol) of the crimes, but that combined with making actual threats. I still think that there's a major difference between that and the generality of song lyrics.
    I definitely agree that it isn't any more moral or tolerable for someone to spread hate to a group in song lyrics than individuals to spread hate verbally. What I'm saying is, the latter is punishable, the former just shouldn't be listened to.

  • mommy
    mommy

    Thank you all for your responses. I was really suprised how close my thoughts on this are to Thinker and Seekers views.

    I feel this child should not be labeled as well. I dislike labels because we are all so different and our circumstances are as well, that it is hard to label into one set group. But I feel this child does need some counseling. To pick up a peice of paper and writing down your thoughts is in reality acting on them. He was planning a list of people he would kill. I feel when he wrote the list it was more solid then just a thought.

    As far as musicians leading our children astray, Jim we have discussed this before and do not see eye to eye. What you are insinuating is that without these songs our children would go back to Leave it to Beaver days. The damage is already done, eveyone has been affected by violence, some close to home, others through media and television influence. I do not agree we should censor what the artists want to say. We alrady have warning labels on the records as we have ratings on movies and even television shows now. I feel if we do anything stricter than this we will be hurting what our country stands for. Along the lines of what Seeker said, the thought police will be next then everyone will be affected.

    My only hope is that this child receives the help he needs. I am so thankful that they realized early his intent. If not then we would have had a much bigger problem. I am not saying throw this kid away for the thoughts that are in his head, not at all. What I am saying is that now we are able to recognize the signs and teachers should be looking for them and acting on them.
    wendy

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