Jesus - was he just an exceptional teacher?

by SM62 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  SM62

  I have been doing a lot of soul-searching lately.

  I have never considered questioning the Bible before. As a child, I was taught that to question the Bible was blasphemous. But lately, since coming to this forum and reading all the various posts and links to other sites, I have started thinking really seriously about things. I started to think that maybe Jesus was just a really good teacher - nothing more, nothing less. He was good with words, good with people, and knew how to stir up a crowd. He had charisma. There have been many people like that - Ghandi, JFK, Princess Diana - even Adolf Hitler could mesmerise a crowd. But didn't Jesus have something extra?

  What I am trying to get at is this. Even though many of you don't believe in the Bible, how do we explain the miracles Jesus performed? Did the Gospel writers lie and make out Jesus was something that he wasn't? I doubt it. They wrote their accounts at different times and in different places (I think - correct me if I'm wrong). Also, didn't other historians confirm the miracles Jesus performed (again - correct me if I'm wrong - I am really new to all of this - I have never had the courage to question things as fully as I do now) If Jesus was just a fantastic teacher with real people skills, how do we account for the fact that he healed the sick and resurrected the dead? What is it about him that makes him stand out? Did he really do what the Bible says he did?

  I have never had any feeling of reverance or awe for God or Jesus. They always make me feel numb, which always made me think that I was an evil person. But now, I have found out that God and Jesus may be the result of an over-imaginative mind. Where do I go now? How does one find out the truth about all of this?

  Very confused........Terri
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  FlyingHighNow

  Terri,

  I am at the point in my journey outside the org that I, too am questioning. I mean I have been questioning for a while now. But I feel this way at this point:

  The WTBTS doctored the Bible to read the way they wanted it to. Catholic monks have doctored the Bible when they were copying it ( when they did it word for word by hand ) to say things they wanted it to say. Ray Franz still maintains that hell is a mistranslation. I am of the opinion that people change the Bible a little here and there to support their own doctrines and agenda. I believe they do it for two basic reasons:

  1. Control of others/power 2. Monetary gain

  At this point though I do still believe the basic message of the Bible is still there. Man was created. He rebelled. He died. His children died. Jesus came to undo the mess Adam got us into. I believe Jesus is much more loving and understanding than most translators paint him. Why he even asked that his murderers be forgiven. He lead a humble life spent with the "trash" of Jewish society.

  I believe he performed those miracles to show how much love he has for suffering humankind. Remember he felt pity for the crowds because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd. Do you think that pity stopped just because he died and was resurrected? I don't. I remember hearing that he had special affection for humankind because he helped create them. I believe he knows the sad circumstances we are all born under. He knows the struggles we all endure. I believe his grace is far broader than most churches dream it is. They want Jesus to be very exclusive. When he was here on earth he was not exclusive. The only people that he was angered with were the exclusive Priests, Scribes and Pharisees and the demons. He didn't like the burdons placed on the people by those religionists. I don't think he likes the burdons most churches would place on us today. I don't think he approves of them trying to use fear of death or fear of hell to control us. I am pretty certain he would rather us be drawn to him because of the love he has for us rather than fear.

  One thing that drew me to JWs was their teaching of us not really having a chance in this life and that our death pays for and aquits of us our sins.Don't most any of us suffer enough hell right here on earth? I believe we won't really know the accurate truth until we die and God tells us what it is. I don't believe any church on earth today knows the accurate truth. I know for darn sure JWs don't know it.

  Hugs,

  Heather
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  SM62

  Heather,

  Thank you so much for your reply.

  Can I just ask you one thing? You said " Man was created. He rebelled. He died. His children died. Jesus came to undo the mess Adam got us into. I believe Jesus is much more loving and understanding than most translators paint him. Why he even asked that his murderers be forgiven. He lead a humble life spent with the "trash" of Jewish society"

  Can I ask you why you believe this? I am not saying it is wrong or that I don't believe it, I just want to know why you believe it.

  Terri
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  FlyingHighNow

  Terri,

  I listen to the voice in me now that sends up red flags when something sounds unfair or unjust. We know that men change the Bible. Most of the time it's to support the trinity or hell but other times it's to support other doctrines. Most religion is about control. The evidence is there for everyone to observe.

  As for Jesus. I look at the influence his existence still holds in this world today. We have most of the world going by calendars based on his life and death. I may change what I believe. My beliefs are evolving. But I tend to go with what my logic and heart told me when I was a child. I automatically knew that God was loving and I never questioned for a second that anything I could do would be unfixable or unforgivable in his eyes. I just knew that he had unconditional love not just for me but all of his children. There was no question about it: God was love.

  Thank goodness my mother and the Episcopal Church never mentioned hell. No matter, I didn't believe in it anyway. I had the wisdom even as a school aged child to know that nothing anyone could do would warrant such punishment. God would never do that to his creatures I felt.

  Jesus said that if we were like little children that the Kingdom belonged to such like ones. I tend to lean towards my childhood beliefs. Children have a deep sense of what is fair and just.

  When you look at the Bible, I say listen to your voice of reason and sense of justice and fairness. Does something sound more like it has an evil source? Most of us who have left the org. had moments during WT studies or other lessons or talks when someone would say something outrageous and we would think: Huhhhhhhh??? I used to think that when we studied books like Revelation: It's Climax At Hand. I used to wonder where they came up with that stuff. It sounded ridiculous. It sounded like made up wishful thinking.

  Have you ever seen the movie Yellow Submarine? I believe we are in a situation similar to the inhabitants of Pepperland. Only instead of Ringo being the hero, it's Jesus that is the hero.

  I don't know if I am making any sense to you or answering your question. I just go with my feelings that someone does care about us earthly inhabitants and someone does have a solution to all of this misery. I believe it is a loving, fair and equitable solution. Otherwise, it sounds to me like bad is going to triumph over good and maybe Satan really is God.

  Heather
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  SixofNine

  I don't see any evidence that Jesus was an exceptional teacher at all. There is scant evidence that he even existed. If he did (and I think it likely), he didn't feel the need to write anything down, so he certainly wasn't concerned with teaching anyone other than those he came across contemporaneously. Some of the better things he had to say, if indeed he had anything to say, are plagerisms, so no credit there.
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  gaiagirl

  I've come to think that Jesus was a man who saw a lot of problems in the religion of his people, and tried to bring about some reform. The Israelites were at that time a subject people, ruled by officers and magistrates appointed by Rome. They longed to be free of Roman rule, and many hoped for a Messiah to lead them in revolt against Rome.

  When Jesus began his preaching work, pointing out the injustices in manner in which his own people worshipped, many saw him as this Messiah, and came to be disappointed when he did not lead them in revolt against Rome.

  However, Jesus was not the only person in history viewed as a Messiah by the nation of Israel, there were others before and after him, who drew a number of followers after themselves, and then came to be forgotten. We remember Jesus primarily because a Roman emperor, Constantine, eventually made Christianity the official religion of the Empire, and other religions came to be outlawed.

  Regarding the gospel writers, I'm not sure if they believed what they wrote or not, but none of them wrote at the time of the events they describe. The earliest gospel was written around 70 C.E. more than 35 years after Jesus died, the last was written around 100 C.E., more than 65 years after his death. Taken as a whole, the Bible didn't exist in its present form until hundreds of years after the last gospel was written. There were many other gospels used by Christians in the first century, such as the gospel of Thomas. These other documents were excluded when the present selection of books was decided upon in the fourth century.

  Miracles are attributed to many people of the ancient world. Most of the miracles attributed to Jesus appear first in the writings of Greeks, Babylonians, and Egyptians hundreds if not thousand of years before the gospels were written. If one chooses to believe those said to be performed by Jesus, then why not (for example) those said to be performed by Isis? She is said to have healed many and even raised the dead. Does a cultural bias cause us to accept one set of legends and reject another? Or do we see these legends as a reflection of the ideals of their authors?

  Gaiagirl
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  DJ

  There is plenty of evidence that Jesus existed sixonine.......just as much as there is for most historical occurances in that time frame if not more. There are even writings about Him from the first century from those who did NOT even believe in Him, such as Josephus.

  As far as was He justa good teacher? That is incorrect because if you believe the bible at all, then you have to be aware that it teaches that He is the creator. Moses doesn't have that claim, neither did Elijah or anyone else but God. Read Hebrews 1:10 and John 1:1-15 as well as Colossians....Nothing was made without HIm, nothing. The Father Himself says of His Son that He laid the very foundation of heaven and earth with His own hands. That is a claim in the OT of YHWH and that He did it alone, by Himself. Isa. 44, Claearly if you accept the bible in any way, you ought o accept all of it. We cannot pick and choose from it. Jesus is the creator, it says so many places in the scriptures. He raised His body....remember when He spoke of raising the temple in 3 days? It says that He was speaking about HIs body and He said that He would raise it up. He is God.
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  Makaveli

  I have full respect for those who believe in Jesus, but I am wary of adapting such beliefs myself.

  For instance, there are very little records that prove Jesus ever existed.

  In saying that, if we are to believe that he existed, I couldn't think of him as any more than a ancient day David Blaine, with the gift of pyhcosis. We cannot prove the existance of Jesus Christ... maybe he was just another wannabee prophet who has the same value as Mohammed of Islam or Sidhartha of Buddhism.
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  Makaveli

  DJ, I really do admire your faith.

  I'm glad I found this site... it's interesting.

  DJ, you said...

  There are even writings about Him from the first century from those who did NOT even believe in Him, such as Josephus

  But Josephus was born in 37 AD, about 4 years after Jesus apparently died. He didn't even see Jesus, so how could he comment on him ? The text in which he does comment on him is not in his early works.... in light of this, we cannot trust Jewish historian Josephus account of the miracle worker from Nazareth.
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  Gopher

  If any historian "confirmed" or verified the miracles attributed to Jesus, I'd sure like to see it. The Bible's accounts of such events must be taken on faith or on belief of the inerrancy of the Bible itself. That's a whole 'nother discussion.

  Anyhow, it seems that each religion has to have its myths and mystique to keep its followers in awe and to make them believe that THEIR religion is the truth, or must be -- otherwise how do you explain the miracles?

  Did an axe really float in water? Did the sun really stand still while the nation of the Bible fought its enemies to a finish? Or are these events meant to inspire awe and loyalty in people, and keep them under a certain spell?

  I don't think any one religion's miracles and signs are better than any other religion's miracles and signs. It all seems a bunch of hocus-pocus to me.

  And I'm not even from Missouri (the "show-me" state).