Great post David Jay. You really know your stuff.
How did we get from singular ha-Elohim (God) to plural ha-Elohim (judges)?
by I_love_Jeff 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
cobweb
David Jay
I had understood that El Shaddai meant God of the mountain which made sense to me because both El and YHWH associated themselves with mountains. You translate it 'Almighty God' though. Why the difference?
-
I_love_Jeff
@ David_Jay
Check out some of Michael Heiser's (Phd) other material when you have time. Interesting.
-
Cold Steel
As used in Genesis, Elohim was clearly plural. "Let US make MAN in OUR image, after OUR likeness" and "man has become as ONE of US." This is erroneously thought to be Satan's first lie. Jesus prayed to the Father concerning the Twelve, "that THEY may be ONE, even as WE are ONE." If twelve can be ONE, why not three?
Here's a lecture by Methodist scholar Margaret Barker:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=nOnHDQgIoCU
In Christianity, the doctrine of theosis was a controversial issue. John wrote that what lay beyond our existence here was a mystery, "but when we see Him, we shall be like Him." (1 John 3:2)
-
doubtfull1799
Fascinating thread. Thanks for starting it @1_Love_Jeff. And thanks for your contribution @David_Jay. Always really interesting to hear your well informed and in depth comments from the Jewish perspective on things.
-
David_Jay
While I appreciate the fact that some have views that differ from what I've posted, some are not familiar with me enough to understand how I post and why.
To reiterate for these what some others already know:
1. My postings generally contain data representing an overview of nominal Jewish thought on a subject, and it may not have anything to do with my personal convictions. Unless I specifically say I am posting my personal view, it isn't.
2. Jews don't have "beliefs" like Gentile religions do, nor is assenting to doctrines by faith a requisite or facet of Judaism. So the data presented in most instances isn't something you need tk debate against as there is no guarantee that I or any other Jew subscribes to what I wrote.
3. I have been involved in a handful of debates here, but I don't wish to continue this practice. Jews aren't interested in changing others into Jews. I appreciate the varied views of others, and I can best learn from others (and I wish to) outside of a forum like this. I just don't subscribe to the teaching that any one group has been assigned all of "the truth."
Finally, as to what some scholars might teach or believe, remember I have no need for Hebrew scholars. I am Hebrew, an Israeli, and I speak Hebrew everyday (and have been speaking it all my life). Scholars, academics, and others in the field of Bible translation have over the years come to me for help in understanding my language. It doesn't work the other way around.
I speak Hebrew, Ladino, and Yiddish, along with several other languages (and English is not my first language by the way). I appreciate being offered materials from Hebrew scholars and I have read much from many such academics, but it doesn't change the data in my post since it was merely encompassing general Jewish thought. It also doesn't add to my use and knowledge of my native language. But thank you, anyway.
-
David_Jay
Post script:
You're welcome, to those who appreciated my comments.
My above post is due to several PMs I received from this thread from others who sent either materials, links, or wanted to argue and attempt proselytizing. That last post was directed to these individuals, not to any others.
For some reason my comments sparked a fierce PM rebuttal - fest, and I am not sure why.
-
David_Jay
Cobweb,
El Shaddai was also "borrowed" from another language/culture. It might have been the title of an Assyrian deity that "lost" to YHVH due to the long-lasting power of the YHVH cult in comparison to theirs. It was common in ancient cultures to dedicate conquered temples and shrines in honor of the gods of the conquering nation. In the case of the Jews, we would adopt the name to show that our religion " conquered " theirs.
The term seems to mean "overpowering one," and thus in English it gets rendered as "Almighty." I actually don't use the term "Almighty" or "Lord" or any English terms even when speaking in English regarding my religion in everyday speech. Like other Jews I will say "El Shaddai" instead of "Almignty." When I pray in English, for instance, I might say, "Blessed are you, Adonai, our God..." instead of "Lord, our God."
Thus the term "Almighty" is more a non-Jewish issue and may be something you might want to take up with Christian translators of the Hebrew Scriptures .
-
Crazyguy
There is some context that the word shaddai meant breasts insinuating that the mountains were the breasts of the world.
And coldsteel you may be on to something because many of the pantheons had a trinity or more then one god being all in one so to speak.
-
David_Jay
While I cannot validate Crazyguy's exact views (as they don't represent anything found in Judaism's knowledge bank regarding our own language), however he is on a similar track to what is understood about the various names of God in Hebrew.
The names for God came from different eras and cultures at times. They don't represent God specifically since God is ineffable in Jewish thought. But they do show the "wrestling" with the concept of God that Jews have engaged in over the centuries.
"Shadad" is the Hebrew word at the root of "Shaddai," and it refers to someone, like a wrestling opponent, who "lays waste" (possibly with violent action) to the one he is fighting against. This the meaning "overpowering one."
One last post script: To those wanting to argue the point further with me in private, please refrain from any more PMs. Keep the conversation here. I will be retiring from this thread for now, however, as I am needed elsewhere at the moment. So perhaps others might want to hear your point of view. You may have some good data to share.