by JW Answers 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Do you believe that Jesus is a man now?
No. Heb 5:7 talks about “the days of his flesh”, indicating that Jesus was temporarily a human during his time on earth. At his resurrection, 1 Cor 15:45 says that Jesus became a “life-giving spirit”. Phil 2:5-11 indicates that Jesus started out as an angel, lowered himself to become a man, and was afterward exalted to an even higher position than before.
Slimboyfat,
Do you disagree with the Watchtower on any point on their teachings on Jesus?
I’m not sure. Let me think. I haven’t thought about that exactly, and my beliefs are a moving target over the years. I started out a believing JW, then through phases of agnosticism, atheism, back to theism, belief in the Bible. There are probably things I disagree about. I think possibly that everyone should partake of the bread and the wine, not just Christians with a heavenly hope, because there is a verse in John that seems to says we need to partake in order to live. I think it’s possible that Jesus is not exactly an angel but, as the only direct creation of God, he is a unique spirit creature who, as archangel, is superior to angels - but that might be a semantic distinction without much significance. One thing I don’t think JWs explain very well is in what sense Jesus will be ‘with us in paradise’ as he said to the person being executed at his side. Will Jesus have a fuller presence on earth in the future?
What do you think?
slimboyfat, what pulled you away from atheism? What kind of atheism did you have? Did you believe/think (such as to a high degree of certainty) that no God/god exists? Or, did you simply not believe that a God/god exists?
When I hear of people who turn away from atheism, especially if they were a theist before they were an atheist, it saddens me. For me atheism (in the broadened sense of atheistic naturalism) is the greatest (in terms of scope) truth there is, for it denies a tremendous number of false beliefs.
What would it take, if anything, for you to become an atheist again?
Phil 2:5-11 indicates that Jesus started out as an angel
@SlimBoyFat - Where does it say Jesus was an angel in this passage:
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The idea that he was God and man at the same time came in the fifth century at Chalcedon.
Wrong. The evidence supports otherwise.
Ignatius who was a disciple of the Apostle John wrote this:
There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.4
For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.
Clearly, there was no confusion about who Jesus was among the early followers and teachers of Christianity.
If you read Phil 2:5-11, without trying to squeeze the Trinity into it, it says that Jesus was in the form of God, and is subject to God. The only spirit creatures we know about in heaven are angels of various kinds. So given the description of Jesus here, and elsewhere, it makes sense to understand Jesus as an angel, although the preeminent, firstborn and most powerful of all the angelic creatures.
given the description of Jesus here, and elsewhere, it makes sense to understand Jesus as an angel
No, it doesn't. Your WT heresy is in clear conflict with not only early church believers but scripture itself:
Heb. 1 -
For to which of the angels did He at any time say:
“You are My Son;
today I have become Your Father”
Or again,
“I will be a Father to Him,
and He shall be a Son to Me”[b]?
6 And again, when He brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 Of the angels He says:
“He makes His angels spirits,
and His servants a flame of fire.”[d]
8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, lasts forever and ever;
You got the wrong Jesus SlimBoyFat. Your angel-god cannot save you from judgement.
Do you believe that man is a tri-partite being as the bible teaches? If not, that is where the problem starts.
You missed out verse 4 which says:
Hebrews 1:4 “So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.”
If Jesus became superior to the angels then what was he before?
@SBF - Don't you believe God existed before Jesus? Why reject the obvious and search for a solution clearly outside of scripture?
You are not addressing the bible's solution to the "problem". I guess your silence means that you do not believe that we are constructed of soul, spirit and body as the bible teaches, is that ok to assume that?
That is why you want to takes sides on whether or not Jesus was less than God. The scriptures clearly teach both equality and less than equality. The solution the bible offers on the nature of man resolves this "problem" that modern man has who is infected with Materialism.
God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
BOTH positions are clearly taught here.... as in a dozen other places including early church writings.
The angel-god of the WT didn't bleed for you. But, God did.
"feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." - Acts 20: 28
slimboyfat, that is an excellent comment you made about Hebrews 1:4. You nailed it. Great job. What you said about Phil 2:5-11 is also what those verses are convey. Great job on explaining the meaning of those scriptures!
The quote by Sea Breeze of a translation of words attributed to
Ignatius, was likely translated from corrupted manuscripts. From prior research, I read other translations of the early church father based upon other manuscripts which excluded claims of Jesus being God. Sea Breeze chooses instead to quote from those which say Jesus is God, instead of those which don't say Jesus is God.
