"outside of time" argument

by Blotty 66 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  EasyPrompt

  Blotty said: "This is going to be very brief..."
  

  
  

  😆 I guess length of time is a matter of perspective. ☺️

  
  

  aqwsed12345 said: "It's particularly amusing that one of the most important Watchtower doctrines which they are 'ad nauseam' parroting, namely "the Son is a creature", is NOWHERE explicitly stated in the Bible, although they amusingly claim that all their teachings are "clearly" in the Bible!"
  

  
  

  "Father" according to Strong's is: "one who imparts life and is committed to it; a progenitor, bringing into being to pass on the potential for likeness...is used of our heavenly Father. He imparts life...refers to a begetter, originator, progenitor..."

  
  

  
  

  
  

  Father = "begetter"

  
  

  Matthew 6:9

  
  

  "You must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.""

  
  

  2 Corinthians 1:3

  
  

  "Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

  
  

  1 Peter 1:3

  
  

  "Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

  
  

  Ephesians 1:15-17

  
  

  "...that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him."

  
  

  Romans 15:5,6

  
  

  "Now may the God who supplies endurance and comfort grant you to have among yourselves the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had, so that unitedly you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

  
  

  Colossians 1:3

  
  

  "We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you..."

  
  

  God is the Father of Jesus. It's right in the Bible a bunch of times. The scriptures clearly describe Jesus as begotten of God. "Begotten" means created. Anything created has a start date and is subject to time.

  
  

  God is not subject to anything or anyone. God is not subject to time, that is why he can tell the finale from the beginning.

  
  

  2 Peter 1:19-21

  
  

  "For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit."

  
  

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IZ6bPACd50
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  aqwsed12345

  @EasyPrompt
  Use less line spacing, clown comments, and redundant, absolutely unnecessary funny pictures and videos.
  
  “”Begotten" means created.”

  Ah…. and should I just believe this on your mere statement? I don't even understand why the theologians argued so much about this, if it would have been enough to throw in 3 (!) words. What kind of intellectual pretentiousness is this?

  Well, nope. Since the Holy Scriptures clearly state many times that the Son was begotten / born of the Father, but never that he was created, there is therefore no reason to assume that he was a creature.
  Just answer the rhetorical question at Hebrews 1:5:
  

  "For which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"?"

  
  Doesn't this just prove that his origin from the Father is qualitatively different (superior) from that of the creatures? That he was born is not the same as creation? We know well that Jesus is the only-begotten God (μονογενης θεος), and not a created angel.
  The Word is the real Son of the Father, and not His crearure. Birth, indeed, is not creation. For man, animal, and stone were created, but they were not begotten from the essence of God, etc. Begetting or giving birth is not creation, because by it a being of the same nature is born (begotten), whereas in creation it is not.
  
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  EasyPrompt

  aqwsed12345 said: "Use less line spacing, clown comments, and redundant, absolutely unnecessary funny pictures and videos."
  

  
  

  😝

  
  

  You're the one making the spacey clown comments.🤡

  
  

  EasyPrompt said: "Begotten" means created.”

  aqwsed12345 said: "Ah…. and should I just believe this on your mere statement? I don't even understand why the theologians argued so much about this, if it would have been enough to throw in 3 (!) words. What kind of intellectual pretentiousness is this?"

  
  

  I don't know what kind of intellectual pretentiousness you have - you're the one who knows.

  
  

  aqwsed12345 said: "Just answer the rhetorical question at Hebrews 1:5:"
  

  
  

  If your question is rhetorical, why do you want me to answer it?

  
  

  Father means procreator. The children of the Father are His creation.

  
  

  When there was nobody else in existence besides God, God fathered Jesus. After that, Jesus helped God make everything else. The only person that God made while solo was Jesus.

  
  

  That's why no other creation of God can be called "only-begotten".

  
  

  
  

  
  

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLuz5jpCVjQ

  
  
  
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  DamnTheTorpedoesFullSpeedAhead

  I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

  I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made.

  For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

  I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

  I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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  TonusOH

  Re: spacing-- the text box this site uses automatically inserts a line break when you hit the Enter key when typing a message. If you are used to hitting enter twice to create a line break, or if you compose your posts in a text editor which lacks this feature, you can end up with extra line breaks between paragraphs.

  This happens to me if I compose a message in notepad and then paste it in. I end up having to remove the extra line breaks before I post the message.
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  aqwsed12345

  @EasyPrompt

  I see that my request to you to avoid the many unnecessary line breaks, "joking" comments and the insertion of unnecessary videos is in vain.

  "Father means procreator. The children of the Father are His creation."

  And yet the Scriptures still clearly distinguish the birth of the only-begotten Son from the making of creatures, and the Scipture never calls the Son a creature. It is just WTS theology. The Son/Logos is the "only-begotten" Son of the Father, so He is unique in his kind, His sonship to the Father is qualitatively different, superior from that of the angels, since He alone is said to have been born / begotten by the Father, while the angels were created.

  "When there was nobody else in existence besides God, God fathered Jesus."

  The actions that take place (with)in God do not take place in time, since God is not subject to temporality, and obviously the imperfect human language can only speak about God in an analogical way, cf. Isaiah 55:8-9, Acts 17:29. It is clear from Hebrews 1:5 that the birth of the Son from the Father took place in the "today" of God. Hebrews 1:5 does not refer to the birth of Jesus as a human from Mary, but to his birth from the Father in the aions before "the beginning". Especially since it is clear from John 1:1a that he "was" already "in the beginning".

  "After that, Jesus helped God make everything else. "

  The Son has not merely "helped", cf. Hebrews 1:10. God created all creatures exclusively and directly ("alone," "by himself," "with his own hands"), there is no such thing as "indirect creation" by using a creature, the idea that a creature, a "lesser god", other than YHWH God, also participates in creation, is refuted by Isaiah 44:24; 45:12, 48:13, Malachi 2:10; Job 9:2,8, Psalm 95:5-6, Neh 9:6. If God created by actually doing it through an "agent", who is not one God with him, then he did not create "alone". If I build my house through an "agent", then I did not build my house "alone". And the Scripture itself uses the analogy of building a house for creation: Hebrews 3:4.
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  EasyPrompt

  vain
  

  
  

  Matthew 15:9

  
  

  "It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines."

  
  

  Matthew 13:10-15

  
  

  "So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?”

  
  

  In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted. For whoever has, more will be given him, and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it.

  
  

  And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed look but by no means see. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them.’"

  
  

  When Jesus said "whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him" he meant that those who attempt to use "religion" as a means to lord it over others, either for financial or prominence purposes, will have that "means of gain" taken away. It will be taken away shortly when the great tribulation begins.

  
  

  If you are a theologian with fancy letters next to your name or a title or you are seeking such prominence or financial gain from such a status, you would be wise to come down from there before Babylon falls.

  
  

  "He who exalts himself will be humbled."

  
  

  God is not partial. Even kids can understand truth. We are all brothers. There is no need to try to be some kind of "fancy superfine apostle". Jesus is far away from that type of person.