Christ's sacrifice

by dogisgod 19 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Himself I am
    Himself I am

    A&E Mmmm..... Where shall I begin? Mmmmm..... I know let's start with a comparison, in ancient Greek (Hellenic) Mythology as written by the likes of Homer, Plato and Socrates (After they studied at Alexandria's Great Library) amongst the 12 labours of Heracles (Hercules) there's this bit about the Titan Lord Atlas and the golden apples of immortality on Zeus's Sacred tree, some mischief that Hera was up to. in that tree dwelled a serpent in God's Orchard. Amos the prophet started the fashion of writing stuff down for future generations circa 700BC, so everything from the Exodus circa 1500BC to Circa 700BC was of the grapevine. Which got written first; the works of Homer or the works of Amos? Ransom, more like emotional blackmail.

  • scratchme1010
    scratchme1010
    So Ransom is a JW thing?

    As others have said, Christianity and being a Christian doesn't mean that they believe, read, interpret and/or understand the events in the bible stories the same way.

    I wonder if it would have been interesting to push further and inquire about what relationship does any of it has with the values that Christianity teaches.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent
    dogisgod: So Ransom is a JW thing?

    The use of the word ransom is more common among JWs. Orthodox christians are more likely to use words like redeemed and redemption.

    redeem is defined as (Oxford Dictionary):

      1. 1redeem oneself Do something that compensates for poor past performance or behaviour.
        ‘Australia redeemed themselves by dismissing India for 153’
      2. Atone or make amends for (sin, error, or evil)
        ‘the thief on the cross who by a single act redeemed a life of evil’
      3. Save (someone) from sin, error, or evil.
        ‘he was a sinner, redeemed by the grace of God’

    • 2Gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment.

      ‘statutes enabled state peasants to redeem their land
      1. Finance Repay (a stock, bond, or other instrument) at the maturity date.
      2. Pay the necessary money to clear (a debt)
      3. ‘owners were unable to redeem their mortgages’

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So you see the word ransom is similar in meaning to the word redeem which is more commonly used in orthodoxy.

    So its a matter of personal choice on the part of the translator. You'll see that more clearly when you understand that the hebrew word palah, can be seen to have these meanings in English. (From the BlueletterBible site) (Reference: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6299&t=NLT

      1. The KJV translates Strong's H6299 in the following manner: redeem (48x), deliver (5x), ransom (2x), rescued (1x), miscellaneous (3x).
        Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
        1. to ransom, redeem, rescue, deliver

          1. (Qal) to ransom

          2. (Niphal) to be ransomed

          3. (Hiphil) to allow one to be ransomed

          4. (Hophal) redeemed

            Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
            פָּדָה pâdâh, paw-daw'; a primitive root; to sever, i.e. ransom; generally to release, preserve:—× at all, deliver, × by any means, ransom, (that are to be, let be) redeem(-ed), rescue, × surely.
            Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon [?]
  • eyeuse2badub
    eyeuse2badub

    So Christ paid the ransom. So who set the ransom price? The one who sets/demands a ransom is the one who stole/took/kidnapped someone or something---right? So if jehober set/demanded the ransom price, then he must also be the perpetrator of the crime that needed to be remedied by the ransom price ---right?

    Oh wait, jehober set/demanded the ransom price but he also is the one who provided the ransom? So the price had to be paid to the one who demanded it but the one who demanded it is also the one who paid it---right?

    Are you confused? if not continue reading the bible and you will be soon!

    just saying!

  • Drearyweather
    Drearyweather
    So Christ paid the ransom.

    Yes

    So who set the ransom price?

    Jehovah. Remember, everything happens due to his will.

    The one who sets/demands a ransom is the one who stole/took/kidnapped someone or something---right?

    No. Legally, the bail/bond amount for releasing someone from prison/detention is set by the law, not by the perpetrator or the criminal.

    So if jehober set/demanded the ransom price, then he must also be the perpetrator of the crime that needed to be remedied by the ransom price ---right?

    No. See the reply above.


  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    I actually attended the memorial with my loyal JW mom this year, and at one point in the talk, the speaker explicitly referred to Jesus' death as effectively balancing the scales of (cosmic) justice - the imbalance being (somehow) caused by Adam's sin and death*.

    I don't know if this is still the official WT company line, though, or if he'd gone off script.

    (*the real reason the WTS rejects evolution, BTW)

  • Diogenesister
    Diogenesister
    The one who sets/demands a ransom is the one who stole/took/kidnapped someone or something---right?
    Drearyweather No. Legally, the bail/bond amount for releasing someone from prison/detention is set by the law, not by the perpetrator or the criminal.

    Classic JW switch of terms. Ransom is a completely different term than bond or bail.

  • Xanthippe
    Xanthippe

    Always struggled with this teaching as a teenager. It's very monetary isn't it, Adam lost perfection, Jesus died to get it back. Very legalistic. I always though it was weird we had to be grateful to God for torturing his son to death when he made the wacky bargain anyway. He was living by his own weird rules.

  • dogisgod
    dogisgod

    The first scripture my mother made me learn was Gen. 3:15 which she said is the whole story of the Bible in one scripture.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    A small but important fact-check.

    Himself I am : A&E Mmmm..... Where shall I begin? Mmmmm..... I know let's start with a comparison, in ancient Greek (Hellenic) Mythology as written by the likes of Homer, Plato and Socrates (After they studied at Alexandria's Great Library) ...

    It would be impossible for the early Greek thinkers and writers (Homer, the possibly legendary author of the Iliad and Odyssey, attributed to late eighth or early seventh century BCE, Plato and Socrates - the Greek philosophers of the fifth century BCE) to have studied at the famed Library of Alexandria. That library was established by one of Alexander the Great's successors, Ptolemy I, in the third century BCE. Alexandria as a city was founded by Alexander.

    The Socrates who did study at that library was also known as Socrates Scholasticus, a 5th-century CE Christian church historian.

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