by Derrick 54 Replies latest jw friends
Jehovah's Witnesses' book Insight on the Scriptures (1988), vol. 1, page 1102 says Hezekiah was "King of Judah, 745-717 B.C.E.". The news item contradicts Jehovah's Witnesses' chronology.
JW chronology is always out by 20 years due to their teaching that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE rather than 586/7 as people in the real world believe.
Alan:IMHO special pleading isn't required, on this one.
The Hebrew language allows the passage to be rendered "the country was flooded", rather than the whole planet and science appears to show that there was no planetary flood.
If you take the bible as a collection of a bunch of peoples subjective recollections of events that may have actually happened, maybe even edited and embellished through time, I don't see the difficulty (Though I haven't studied the geology of the area, my immediate thought is that the Mediteranean Sea seems another likely candidate).
Genesis was merely a compilation of earlier works, so it surprises me little that there are parallels in the Babylonian and Sumerian epics.
Of course, they could also just be stories with a "payload" of some description.
Frenchie:
...you are probably very strong somewhere...
Is that a come-on?
Abaddon:
Yeah, I agree, LittleToe is joining my list of accredited nice Christians...Is that a come-on?
Speaking of all this, does anyone know of any good books that talk about whether or not a global flood ever happened?
LittleToe said:
: IMHO special pleading isn't required, on this one.
But if you carefully reread what I wrote, you'll see that I demonstrated why it's special pleading. If you want to do more than merely offer a contrary opinon, you'll have to show why my claimed demonstration is wrong.
: The Hebrew language allows the passage to be rendered "the country was flooded", rather than the whole planet and science appears to show that there was no planetary flood.
Allowing for such usage is not the same as demanding it. The point is that almost all readers of Genesis up until near the end of the 19th century would understand perfectly that the Flood was supposed to be global. There isn't a single word in the Flood account that isn't either fully consistent with a global Flood, or virtually demands it. The only thing about the Flood account that is consistent with local flooding is the ambiguity of the Hebrew word for {earth,land}. I've noted that you carefully steer away from pretty much all the specifics I've discussed. Why?
: If you take the bible as a collection of a bunch of peoples subjective recollections of events that may have actually happened, maybe even edited and embellished through time,
That's exactly the way I view the Bible -- but not as the infallible and/or inspired Word of God. Do you view it that way?
: I don't see the difficulty
One difficulty (which you have ignored) is as I said: the NT says that Jesus compared the coming of the Flood with his upcoming return (parousia), and so he obviously viewed every bit of the Flood account as real history, just as his return would be real history. Do you disagree? Do you not see the problem?
: (Though I haven't studied the geology of the area, my immediate thought is that the Mediteranean Sea seems another likely candidate).
When you study the geology, you'll find that the Mediterranean Sea is a poor candidate. Between roughly 4 and 5 million years ago, the Strait of Gibraltar repeatedly closed, as the African continent pushed northward against Europe. After it closed, the Mediterranean dried up completely, leaving massive salt deposits in the lowest places. The Nile cut a deep canyon to the bottom, and its canyon was hundreds of feet below today's sea level up to about a thousand miles upstream. This canyon is today buried under massive quantities of delta sediments. After some time the Atlantic broke though and flooded the Mediterranean basin. This cycle repeated many times, as shown by interbedding between marine bottom and salt deposits. Today the deep Mediterranean has about 200 meters of uninterrupted marine sediment on top of the interbedded deposits. Obviously, none of this is consistent with a biblical Flood.
: Genesis was merely a compilation of earlier works, so it surprises me little that there are parallels in the Babylonian and Sumerian epics.
Nor me.
: Of course, they could also just be stories with a "payload" of some description.
I think that the Sumerians came up with the story, and transmitted it to all the other ancient peoples in the region, who adapted it to their own mythology and religious needs.
AlanF
amac said:
: does anyone know of any good books that talk about whether or not a global flood ever happened?
I don't know of any booklength treatments that specifically deal with this, but I have a number of books that touch on it from a variety of aspects. However, my essay on "The Flood" might give you some helpful pointers: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm
AlanF
Thanks AlanF, although the link is temporarily down, so I'll have to check it later. Does your paper have a bibliography? I'm interested in any books I can add to my library, even if they merely touch on the subject. No offense to you, Alan, but I'd have a hard time using a paper written by an "apostate" if I was to ever discuss this topic with a JW. Thanks.
Hi Amac,
: Does your paper have a bibliography?
Not a formal one, but there are tons of fully referenced footnotes.
: I'm interested in any books I can add to my library, even if they merely touch on the subject.
When I get home from work, I'll see what else I can dig up.
: No offense to you, Alan, but I'd have a hard time using a paper written by an "apostate" if I was to ever discuss this topic with a JW.
Of course. But there are enough references around that you can be your own "apostate".
AlanF
Alan:
Sorry pal, it's just not a topic that truly interests me that greatly, otherwise I would have contributed more to Abaddons thread on it. My views on the Genesis account have been expressed a few times recently.
I prefer to give it the local legend treatment, and enjoy it's rather obvious message that God can kick ass when He so chooses to do so.
With regards to Jesus references to it, that can be taken a number of ways, too. He sheds no light on whether or not it was global or local. He takes a story which is part of the folklore and applies it to his own ends.
Is there any evidence of plate-shift, in the whole area?
Further, the measurements of distance and time may well be skewed for that period, having maybe been translated by Moses or some predecessor. The lifespans of Antediluvian seem unusual, to say the least.
Strangely enough a non-religious friend started discussing this with me, only today. He speculated that they may have represented months from attaining adulthood (maybe even as young as 12, given the Jewish significance of that age, and the biblical significance of the number), by whatever rite of passage.
Hence Methuselah could have lived 187 months from adulthood (age 12 + 15yr7mth = 27) before siring Lamech, and lived a total of 969 months from adulthood (12 + 80yrs 9mth = 92). I found it interesting to listen to him, as he has no religious bias, and was merely expressing how he saw the story (without actually studying it at all).
Alternatively, how about a Sci-Fi approach:
God told Noah (who was part of His ongoing genetic experimentation project), to get his ass safe, while He vapourised some of the lab-rats that had gone wrong (some of them had got big and mean).
God flooded the area, and then after a period of time used his spaceship's tractor beam to lift Noah's wee boat and place it on top of a mountain.
Mesanwhile, the rest of H.Sap.Sap. lived blissfully unaware of what had happened in that sleepy valley.
All idle speculation and titilation, I know...
I appreciate everyone's sincere and heartfelt replies. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, and I respect that.
At the present time I'm unable to spend a lot of time in replying, and hopefully I will be able to spend some time going over each of your excellent points.
Therefore, I will cut to the chase and state a few facts which you can dispute, but I honestly believe these facts cannot be successfully disputed by anyone:
This is the "naked truth" and like in the days before the flood many people poke fun at these facts. Some people I know extend their refusal to believe in that which they cannot feel, touch and sense, not only by claiming God and the Bible are fiction. I have even heard people poke fun at physicists by arguing that other dimensions beyond our own cannot possibly exist because if they did, you could see them. You can't see God, so he doesn't exist... similar "logic" was used in more primitive times.
