Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914? (page 2)

Reasonfirst

Its all biblical bullshit.

The sad thing is that so much western culture is based on this bullshit.

Vanderhoven7

No. He came in the clouds of heaven in AD 70 in judgment on Jerusalem.

Fisherman

No. He came in the clouds of heaven in AD 70 in judgment on Jerusale

“When the Son of man arrives in all his power and gloryTHEN he will sit on his glorious throne …as a shepherd separates sheep from goats…” You know very well this did not happen in 70. In fact it was the Romans that destroyed Jerusalem and then the world stayed the same whereas Dan 2 says that God’s messianic kingdom aka Jesus coming with the clouds will destroy kingdoms such as the Roman Empire. God uses lovers of the religions to destroy or punish religions. He doesn’t do that directly whereas Jesus coming with the clouds of heaven will destroy human governments according to Bible prophecy and that did not happen in 70 although you like to believe that.

Jeffro

Fisherman:

You know very well this did not happen in 70.

Indeed. It was expected shortly after that though. Their expectations were simply wrong, and Christians have been making up other interpretations ever since.

peacefulpete

The writer/s are connecting Jesus's coming in judgement to various OT passages that describe God and Son of Man as coming on the clouds or riding on the clouds. There is no secret meaning. This was an ancient idiom drawn from Baal as rider of the clouds. Yahweh and Son of Man are frequently described that way.

1Rise up, O God, and scatter your enemies.

Let those who hate God run for their lives.

2Blow them away like smoke.

Melt them like wax in a fire.

Let the wicked perish in the presence of God.

3But let the godly rejoice.

Let them be glad in God’s presence.

Let them be filled with joy.

4Sing praises to God and to his name!

Sing loud praises to him who rides the clouds.

His name is the LORD—

rejoice in his presence!

17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels:

Deut 33:26 ¶ There is none like God, O righteous people, which rideth upon the heavens for thine help, and on the clouds in his glory.

Isa 19:1 Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud

Psalm 104:3 You use the clouds for your chariot. You move on the wings of the wind

Then by the 2nd century BCE this idiom was attached to a "son of man" character:

I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,

2 Esdras 13:3 And I looked, and behold, this wind made something like the figure of a man come up out of the heart of the sea. And I looked, and behold, that man flew with the clouds of heaven; and wherever he turned his face to look, everything under his gaze trembled,

And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

The WT spin that it represents invisibility is more than silly given the sentence itself contradicts it.

In the minds of the WT it's all a ruse, the verse says one thing but means another. Secret knowledge only able to be understood properly by them.

Disillusioned JW

Thanks peacefulpete for your post, including the quote from II Esdras.

Thanks Reasonfirst for your post. Too much western Gentile culture is influenced upon the ancient falsehoods and outright nonsense found in the Bible written by ancient religious Jews. In contrast, not enough of western Gentile society accepts the scientific knowledge and scientific theories of modern day atheistic/agnostic nonreligious ethnically Jewish scientists.

For example, Carl Sagan was an agnostic (or weak atheist) nonreligious ethnically Jewish scientist who taught that evolution (cosmological, chemical, and biological) and climate change is true, yet so many of western Gentile society rejects those ideas and believes in the Jewish Scriptures instead.

For another example, the ethnically Jewish theoretical scientist named Albert Einstein who believed that the universe is ancient said he did not believe in a personal God, yet so many Gentiles believe in the nonexistent God of the Jewish Scriptures while rejecting the truths that the Universe and Earth are billions of years old and that life has existed on Earth for a great many hundreds of millions of years.

The Jewish Hebrew Scriptures have passages saying that the kingdom of a Jewish Messiah (of a Jewish God, Yahweh Elohim) will rule over the gentiles. Why should those of us who are Gentiles adopt the religion (such as Christianity which started out Jewish) which teaches such - especially since much of the religion (whether in its non-Christian or Christian forms) makes no sense, has numerous outrageous fictitious 'god tales', and has no confirmation by modern science?

Acluetofindtheuser

Jesus has been invisibly present to the christian congregation ever since he ascended to heaven. Jesus said at Matthew 18:20 that he would be among them when two or three are gathered in his name. The prophecy about his second coming with the clouds of heavens is different. Matthew 24:29-30 reveals a sign of the son of man will appear in heaven or sky after some strange power shakes up the heavens. This has to be something obvious in the sky that no one can deny. Every eye will see it and people will be faint out of fear because of it. It won't be invisible. Read Legends of the Jews by Louis Ginzberg and you'll know what I mean.

Disillusioned JW

Regarding why so many people believe Jesus came (and/or will come) at some point with kingly power, and why so many people are religious see the article at https://onlysky.media/pzuckerman/is-atheism-unnatural-2/ which is called "Is atheism unnatural?" It is written by Phil Zuckerman, who is the author of Living the Secular Life and of Faith No More. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Zuckerman says Zuckerman was born "... to secular Ashkenazi Jewish parents ...". It also says the following. "His research interests are secularity, atheism, apostasy, and Scandinavian culture. ... The American Humanist Association has featured Zuckerman as a speaker on rising irreligion in the United States."

At https://onlysky.media/pzuckerman/it-is-time-for-the-end-of-zionism/ Zuckerman has an article called "It is time for the end of Zionism" and thus it is somewhat relevant to the topic of "Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?". In the article he says has "... come to embrace post-Zionism" and he says that part of the definition of post-Zionism is that "... it rejects the vile notion that a magical deity plays favorites with certain peoples, granting some vast parcels of land but not others ...". His article also says the following.

"For those of us who embrace secular humanistic values such as empathy, compassion, fairness, justice, and democracy, post-Zionism is an essential part of the journey toward making this world a better, more humane place."

Linda14

Christs coming as stated at Matt 24:30 is the same as Matt 24:3. That is the sign of his presence Jesus was talking about. When perhaps that heavenly quaking starts happening, that's the sign that the son of man has come, his presence. Some activities would happen during this presence period. The sign of Christs presence is the same as the "end" and also the "conclusion of the system of things". Watchtower is overloading this 1914 with a whole lot.

When Jesus starts his kingdom, he will rule the world, he won't be sharing rulership with worldly government. See how the bible puts it.

15 The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

If Jesus became king in 1914, then he is now the ruler of the world, and not Satan. Revelation from 11:17 states that judgment will follow that rulership.

It should also be noted that contrary to what watchtower teach, the throne of David was not vacant when Jesus came in the first century. In fact, Jesus made a triumphant entry into Jerusalem as a king in fulfillment of the book of Zechariah. So the seat was not vacant. He was even born a king. Dan 9:5-10. When asked by Pilate, Jesus didn't say "well I am not a king". Jesus metaphysically agreed that he was a king, but that his kingdom is not of this world. In his torture stake, it was posted "king of the Jews".

So watchtower is wrong by saying that the throne of David was vacant till 1914. Jesus first kingship was not expected to last forever. He was expected to be killed. That didn't mean he was never a king. To Jehovah he has fulfilled an aspect of the prophesy meant for that period. The next will come when he takes over rulership from worldly rulers, then rule the world.

Rattigan350

He came in a BMW.

Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

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