In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt 65 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • PetrW


    Hi, Kosonen,

    I'm also glad to see that someone is searching and thinking about the Bible. That's why every post like yours always gets my like 😊 even if I don't fully identify with it, I still think it's meaningful for both sides (for the one who writes it to form his opinions and for the one who reads it to clarify his).

    Now to Daniel: as you point out, the book is inaccessible, shrouded in mystery. The book of Revelation is open to scrutiny, and even what is written there can somehow be applied to life...

    So I started with Revelation. In Daniel, I just did a kind of probing, exploratory drilling 😊 For example, as you mention "the abomination that shall be set in a holy place", it's quite difficult (for me) to put the context of Daniel with the statements of Jesus, who warned of "the abomination of desolation" in his discourse to the apostles. What I write below is actually a description of a failure (I feel that way), because despite the search, more questions than answers arose. That is: which text from Daniel did Jesus mean, which βδέλυγμα was it? Three passages come to mind: Dan 9:27 or 11:31 or 12:11. According to the context of the word βδέλυγμα as used by the Septuagint in the Mosaic Law, this is what I looked for and roughly understood: the term is used for a religious-moral description of anything that is abominable before God: it is any contact with carrion, human excrement, and refers to forbidden types of food from certain animals (see, e.g., Lev 11:10 ff).

    The sacrifice of lame sacrificial or otherwise unfit animals is considered an abomination (Deut 17:1 cf. 23:19). Also abominable are sexual contacts outside of intimacy between a woman and a man (homosexuality, sexual relations with animals, etc. Lev. 18:22-29; Lev. 20:13) or the attempt to induce such sexual practices: by confusing and wearing male and female clothing of the opposite sex (Deut. 22:5). Idols also become abominations (Deut 7:25-26; 17:4), especially magical practices (Deut 18:9-12) and the burning of children as sacrifices to pagan gods (Deut 13:31). The big issue then is honesty in business dealings: any double weights or measuring objects are also an abomination (Deut 25:16).

    From these findings, the following picture can be drawn: an abomination is directly some human action that provokes in others (humans or God) a strong revulsion escalating to mortal hatred (see Deut 17:4-5). Thus, for example, homosexuality, magic, divination, burning one's own children, or some single act (contact with something unclean) is considered an abomination. Objects can also be an abomination - typically idols, which, in conjunction with idolatry, "complete" the abominable act.

    Idols, as imitations of something real (either existing entities: the statue of an animal) or non-existent (false gods), are, in their essence, very similar to, for example, false weights, which someone deliberately made indistinguishable from the real ones, in order to steal from another and gain dishonest gain for himself (see Proverbs 11:1). Some items may not be directly objectionable (e.g., dresses or lame sacrificial animals), but when combined with sexualized behavior and actions-for example, if a man puts on a woman's dress-the entire activity, like the sacrifice of lame animals, is considered an abomination.

    If I transfer this to the eschatological statement of Jesus, who quoted one (which one? ) passage from the book of Daniel: that in the context of βδέλυγμα we might expect some very sophisticated action which - if we didn't know that it was an "abomination" and the one doing so took care to cover it all up, so that we would first regard the action as normal, normal, and only later discover that it was a fraud or deception (as in the use of false weights and measures). The one who acts heinously will seek to weaken, refute, or otherwise deny the reasons that would point to his pathological actions. If we know what is abomination in God, it is easier to see that the person in question, often acts in direct association with something that is itself abominable, or so that through his abominable activity, his "instruments" become abominable as well. I associate this with the Antichrist, the man of lawlessness, the beast with two horns.

    In the New Testament, the word "abomination" βδέλυγμα (apart from Mt 24:15; Mk 13:14) occurs in Luke 16:15 and in Rev 17:4-5 (about Babylon the Great) and Rev 21:27. (In the context of Luke 16:15, it is the seeming, hypocritical righteousness of the Pharisees that seems to serve God but at the same time serves mammon cf. Rom. 2:22) This description is also common to Babylon the Great, the harlot, who is described in Rev. 17:5 as "the mother of...the abominations of the earth."


    What I have described is really just a probe into the book of Daniel. And it reaffirms to me how complicated this thing is. I haven't gotten into the next one yet. Therefore, I have no more to respond or react to. But thanks again for your time.

    I will hopefully finish a few comments on my view of the identity of Babylon the Great, and perhaps then it will be clearer what positions I am starting from.


    p.s. yesterday's bell. I come out and there's two JWs. They said that two of their members visited me (yes, sometime a month ago) and talked to me. I didn't tell them anything about my past. I told them in response to their questions about how I view the present and future that I think there is a symbolic darkness here. That the evidence that says it's over, that it's difficult to evaluate, and it may be true, but it may as well be just one historical stage again. The ambiguity of the situation around us does not, in my opinion, absolve us from the commitment that we must, above all, keep changing ourselves if we want to be called Christians. They liked it and sent another couple. And I, as the bell rang, got up from the computer with this web-site open and went to talk to the other side of the barricade😊 😊 and talked again about eschatology and what I write here, telling them too...

    Then at home everyone laughed at me for telling her who I was, because they will, from now on, keep bothering us. But I told them that although it was such a funny thing, the fun-factor was there, but on the other hand, although I have no missionary ambitions, my humble intention was to show them now, or maybe in the future I want to show them, that it is possible to be outside the organized church and still read the Bible and do something with yourself. That churches are good, but not necessary. Kind of a modest goal: look, you have a strong organization behind you and I have no one. And yet we can talk at the same eye level... 😊 😊 😊

  • Kosonen


    When and by what means do you say the wild beast and the false prophet get thrown into the fiery lake?

    In Revelation 19 they gather to fight with Jesus. So he defeats them by swiftly destroying them.

    Do you believe the UN is the beast in ch 13 who gets the said 42-month authority?

    No I don't. The beast in ch 13 will have authority over a new financial system and will require that people worship its image.


    Ch 17 - [And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.]
    When and by what means do you say the wild beast/8th king goes off into destruction?

    Chapter 17:14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”

    Do you believe the UN is the 8th king?


    17:10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while.

    Five kings were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece.

    One is. It is the same as the fourth beast in Daniel 7. The Roman empire, it still exists in the sense of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 with its ten horns and a last eleventh that will appear. In fact the Roman empire was Italy, France, England and other European countries. It expanded when Europeans from these countries went to North America.

    So the 6th king of the apostle John's time is still in power.

    But the 7th king has not showed up yet, and as Revelation 17:10 says "he must remain a short while". Yes, here we have it, the 7th king is the seven headed beast in Revelation 13 who will rule a short while, 42 months.

    Then even in a shorter time the 8th king, the UN will rule for one hour.

    And the UN will not get the power from the Dragon. Instead it is as stated in verse 17 For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished.

  • Duran


    You say:

    So he defeats them by swiftly destroying them.

    That answer was in reference to how the beast (Ch 13) and false prophet get thrown in the firey lake/come to their end. And your answer was Jesus does so.

    I am presuming at Armageddon, right?

    Next you say:

    The beast in ch 13 will have authority over a new financial system

    Now while that is true, it also says this about this beast:

    5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven. It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation... If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.


    In regard to the ch 17 beast/8th king coming to its end, you also say Jesus will do so. And again, I am presuming at Armageddon, right?

    You also say the 8th king is the UN, and the 7th king will be the beast (ch 13) ruling during the 42-months.

    So according to you:

    Jesus comes at Armageddon destroys both the 7th and 8th king but throws the 7th king and false prophet into the firey like but not the 8th king?

    Just out of curiosity, how/when do you think the KOTN and MOL come to their end?

  • Kosonen


    I don't have full understanding about the exact time line after the 1260 days end. Daniel speaks about the 1290th and 1335th day but does not tell what exactly happen on those days. Daniel ch 12.

    In addition Daniel 7:11 says the following: “I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking; I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. 12 But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season.

    And the Bible tells about the attack of Gog from Magog in Ezekiel 38. And I can not pinpoint exactly when that will happen in relation to the other moments of destruction.

    In addition the battle at Armageddon seems to point to this place literally which is situated in todays' Israel.

    And Joel speaks about the Valley of Jehoshaphat:

    Joel 3:12 Let the nations be roused and come up to the Valley of Je·hoshʹa·phat; For there I will sit in order to judge all the surrounding nations. 13 Thrust in a sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come down and tread, for the winepress is full. The vats overflow, for their badness is abundant. 14 Crowds, crowds are in the valley of the decision, For the day of Jehovah is near in the valley of the decision. 15 Sun and moon will become dark, And the stars will lose their brightness. 16 And Jehovah will roar out of Zion, Out of Jerusalem he will raise his voice. And heaven and earth will rock; But Jehovah will be a refuge for his people,

    So how are all these and other prophecies about the end of this system of things happen seems too difficult to understand today.

    But we can focus on the prophecies that are next in line to get their fulfillments.

  • Duran
    I don't have full understanding about the exact time line after the 1260 days end.

    I didn't ask you for a timeline AFTER the 1260 days. I asked how these players/entities come to their end.



    disgusting thing,


    wild beast/8th king (Ch 17),

    wild beast/42-months (Ch13),


    Northerner (In Joel)

  • Kosonen

    Please look it up in the Bible. What more could I add?

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