Talking to a wall

by ivanatahan 10 Replies latest jw friends

  • ivanatahan

    Why must these people be figurative walls when talking about the lies of the JW cult?

    The other day, I had a conversation with my mother. We started talking about the election and how the candidates differ (me being a supporter of Bernie). At some point when we started talking about Trump's intolerance of Muslims she had the audacity to say, "I just wonder what will lead to the ban on all religion."

    I may as well have strangled her right there, but I instead told her that it wasn't in the power of the United Nations to even do such a thing. If they can't stop a genocide in Rwanda, how the f*ck can they ban religion worldwide? Who would agree to such a thing? Religion is still so implanted in so many people and nations. Brazil is strongly Catholic. Russia uses the Orthodox Church to influence its followers. It just isn't in the interest of the world to end religion, especially after all the mayhem it can result in. No leader would subject themselves to such a backlash. She said God will place it into the hearts of world leaders, to which I simply repeated what I said and how no one would even adhere to such a ruling, even atheists and non-religious people. It is simply an outright violation of the very foundations that the UN was founded on. Then she told me that history is filled with unexpected events, like the Russian Revolution. I told her the Revolution didn't change the people, nor did it last very long. The people rose up to end the system that was founded after the Revolution. Of course, she didn't agree, with a little, ugly smirk on her face. She said that the Bible prophesied it, so it'll happen. "Everything the Bible said will happen with happen" (Can someone tie me a noose?). I told her, "then why is the Bible so open to interpretation? If it is true and this will happen, why does everyone have a different interpretation of the Bible?" She said the Bible isn't open to interpretation, that it's clear and easily understood. Sigh.

    Later, the conversation turned to my personal freedoms, how I'm not allowed to hang out with my friends. I told her how I loved them but I didn't respect their ideas that everyone not a member of the cult is evil and a drug dealer and has sex with every female they saw. I told her that I regret getting baptized because it was the stupidest decision I ever made. I criticized how the cult makes it important that children get baptized at a young age, yet these same kids can't get married early. What's the difference? Both decisions are life altering. I told her that it's ridiculous they'd make a child, like 11 year old me, to get baptized and dedicate their lives with the possibility of getting shunned by everyone. I told her I wasn't capable of realizing the consequences and the seriousness of such a decision. No child is. Of course, she didn't agree with that. As every JW tries to claim, these kids knew they'd be disfellowshipped if they sinned. I didn't even have anything to say to that, it was like talking to a wall; she would never understand.

    She then told me that by deciding to go against the organization I was openly rebelling against them and proving to them that I didn't love them. I told her that that was a lie and that I love them very much for everything they've given me, but just because I don't have the same beliefs as them does not mean I don't love them. I told her I refused to follow such a controlling religion and refuse to be like her who simply reads what 7 guys in Brooklyn writes them and believes what they want her to believe, like that children who don't share your beliefs don't actually love you. I told her I refuse to worship men, especially hypocrites. I even told her about the Royal Commission and how one of the GB members said it was "presumptuous to say" that JWs believed to be the only representatives of God. She legitimately told me that she supports what he said, following along the lines of the "theocratic warfare" and justification of lying. I told her lying is lying, and that you can't ever excuse lying. The Bible says don't lie, so why do you lie? In the end she told me she doesn't care about what the organization does or has done, and that what's important is "God" and what the Bible says.

    I swear, talking to these people is like talking to a wall. Why do I even bother?

  • Miss Behaving
    Miss Behaving

    At least you know that you really tried. You approached her like a reasonable human being, gave her a chance to give a logical argument. All she could do was toss back the party lines.

    It bites to lose the people we love. Even if we don't get DF'd, there's a mental/emotional connection we never get back. I don't blame my folks anymore. I see them as victims of a virulent and manipulative ideology. If I were ever in proximity to the GB though... well... it would be hard to stay civil

  • Tenacious
    In the end she told me she doesn't care about what the organization does or has done, and that what's important is "God" and what the Bible says

    This statement is key to understanding why she doesn't grasp or understand the fact that the GB are lying sinister hypocrites.

    Simply speaking, due to the repetitive exposure to witness teachings, in her mind, God and the GB are the same entity. So when she is shown concrete proof that the GB lies, minsterprets, deceives, etc., because her mind only understands them to BE Jehovah God, it will automatically protect itself by going into a state of denial in order to protect itself by something (the truth) to hard to even contemplate. The harder you push the more defensive she will get up to the point of violence.

    This is a very broad overview of the psychological condition many witnesses suffer from when they are confronted with the truth. When they experience this in field service, they just label people apostates and be done with it, onto to the next house. It's actually quite fascinating to see this happen.

  • jhine

    I had a similar experience the other day . A conversation with two JW ladies turned to the false Armageddon prophecies , 1914 and 1975 for instance . While totally admitting the fact that at least twice the WT had prophecied falsely about the end , the " they are just imperfect men " excuse came out .

    I asked if the Bible verse about not knowing the date or time of the end was in the Bible when the WT was making these predictions , or had it been added since . No answer, blank looks and move quickly on .


  • ToesUp
    We have the same experiences with our family. We have decided just not to go there anymore. Like you's like talking to the wall. Frustrating! Sometimes my spouse just switches the subject.
  • LisaRose

    You will never win an argument with a cult member because to admit you were right on any point will be to admit they are wrong in everything, their entire belief system and way of life. The stakes are just way too high, so she will never give you any ground.

    Just a suggestion, If you get a chance to talk to her again you migh try first establishing some raphor on something you know to be an issue for her, then asking questions designed to get her to open up about her issues or doubts.

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    "I just wonder what will lead to the ban on all religion."

    How prepared is Watchtower for this ban?

    Is the top JW leadership prepared? Now that the GB and their hamburger helpers have plastered their names, faces, and voices on the Internet, along with their current and future addresses, it will be very easy for the government to round them up and truck them off to concentration camps before the government could start rounding up all the Catholic clergy. The GB have made themselves the "low hanging fruit" for any attack.

    If this ban on religion is really expected, how prepared are middle managers of COs, elders, and MSs? The only type of training I might have ever received was to get together with my book study group for protection and direction. LOL that was trashed a long time ago because gasoline was too expensive for publishers to drive to book study! So in case of ban, JWs will have to report to the local congregation, the assembly hall, or the branch... get loaded into trucks by the police, and sent to concentration camps.

    WT certainly isn't prepared financially for a ban. Now that publishers and congregations have been instructed to give all their ice cream money to the GB, it's very easy for all those assets to be seized. JWs would be far better prepared to endure such an attack if they had plenty of personal savings, professional trades, and survivalist training. Instead, some JWs have the emergency "go bags", but where will they go? To the closed branch? The burnt down Kingdumb Haul? A "worldly" Red Cross shelter?

    A JW may think the Catholic Church would quickly crumble, but in reality it has additional institutions like schools and hospitals where it would continue to thrive. What do JWs have? Their cheesy website that would be blocked in a minute.

  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot
    Why must these people be figurative walls when talking about the lies of the JW cult?

    You'll find that to be the case in all fundamentalist religions.

  • Divergent
    I get the "It's not a perfect religion, but it's still the best there is" excuse everytime I talk to my mum. Followed by "Where else would we go to?" I feel like I'm talking to a wall too!
  • ivanatahan

    You guys are right, and I knew my parents would never understand. I've known for a while, before I even came on this site, but sometimes I just can't accept that. I don't accept having parents blinded to a cult. Not only is my life limited because of them, but so is theirs. A while ago during a heated argument, I even told them that they'll be on their deathbeds before they'll realize it's a lie. My parents aren't stupid, but they're very gullible. At least my mother is. She believes so many conspiracy theories, essentially anything that goes against common knowledge. My father is just her puppet and does what she wants so that she would love him.

    I just really hope that I'll be able to live my life the way I want to live it and be able to get my revenge on the organization: live a happy, productive life, better than the lives of the "sheep" that follow the cult.

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