Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?

by Brokeback Watchtower 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Socrateswannabe
    I don't think believing in god means you're dumb...but it may mean you're a little naive, just as I was when I believed.
  • DJS


    Yes. I think we are saying the same thing. Thanks for putting it into better words Oh Queenly One.

  • LoveUniHateExams

    I think I agree with Socrateswannabe - believing in God isn't necessarily dumb.

    Take Dr David Kelly - he received his doctorate (DPhil) from Oxford. He belonged to the Bahá'í Faith, but he must have been fairly intelligent to be accepted for postgraduate study up at Oxford. He was also one of the world's foremost weapons inspectors.

    Perhaps there are other factors - those that believe in God might worry about their or their family's mortality.

  • Mephis
    Of course I assume everyone here is college-educated with a degree

    A lot of us are. And then some. We just don't make a big thing of it other than to encourage others to consider the options which work for them with education, or professional qualifications. Best time on some of the other ex-jw groups are when people post up their graduation pics. Always so cool because we all have some idea of how much it takes to get there. Oh, personally, I have BA (hons), MA, PGCE (ie MA equivalent), plus similarly weighted professional qualifications. Like my privacy, but the universities were Russell Group standard although cost was a bigger factor than anything else in my choices.

    Anyhows, well done on your bachelor degree. Genuinely. If you wish to use education as a very loose proxy for intelligence, I think that's fair enough as long as allowance is made within this particular community for the difficulties around that. It's also worth keeping in mind that in the wider world, an undergraduate degree isn't uncommon. The average secondary school teacher here in Britain will have at least that and, commonly, the MA equivalent teaching qualification.

  • David_Jay

    Re-read my posts.

    I was stating we could use our educational histories, IQs, etc., to do a more precise study on the question being asked. Assuming everyone on here has something similar I thought people were genuinely interested in finding an analytical answer.

    I wasn't saying my education or IQ prove I am not a "dumb theist." Apparently it doesn't matter what my education is or my WAIS scoring as none of this prevents people from calling me names or congratulating me. People will take the same data and arrive at conclusions they desire in the end.

    I didn't publish anything that isn't on my public internet resumes or that can't be found on professional profiles about me around the Net.

    If anyone is interest, I have a very low EQ, and I don't always deal well with people because I tend to be highly logical and extremely literal compared to others. My posts where in line with literally getting our information together to come up with a literal hypothetical model and arrive at an answer. To be very honest I am very confused by some of the responses, and my questions I write in response are real. I am asking becuase I don't know.

    Therefore I leave this forum in the hands of those far better to explain things and deal with matters regarding JWs (see my education and IQ don't help me after all). Like the real world, I am better sitting back and listening even here.

  • DJS

    Stick around David Jay,

    This site is a very good viaduct to improve EQ. The back and forth, the debates, the insults - all of it - will, over time, strengthen your abilities to control your thoughts and emotions and focus them more clearly into rational thought and expression. We need all of the educated smart people we can get.

  • Ucantnome
  • Giordano

    This old, mere C-average former HS student, wants you to stick around as well. You write purdy...LOL In all seriousness I was following the discussion closely.

    There is an adjustment period when people first join up and begin to post especially if the week before they were serving the congregation and or door knocking and dealing with JW BS. Or as the case may be...... not a believer or supporter of the JW construct. Jumping in to this place can sometimes feel like the water's too cold to swim in and then one adjusts and you go from discomfort to refreshing.

    Going back to the subject........ is calling a person of belief dumb accurate.......... or are they actually using rational ignorance? That term applies to economic theory but I think it is also a tool used by deeply religious people and certainly groups like the JW's, Mormons etc.

    The definition is:

      Rational ignorance is refraining from acquiring knowledge when the cost of educating oneself on an issue exceeds the potential benefit that the knowledge would provide.

      So when newbies come on this site and say "I don't know how anybody could believe in Evolution!" Or be an Atheist, or remain a JW or vote liberal or conservative or don't believe in a Creator.Are they dumb or are they ignorant? And if we suspect ignorant..... wasn't that a rational decision that they made so that they could be included in and thought well of in whatever organization/religion one needed to be a part of?

      On that basis I think dumb is not appropriate for believers. That's too simple an explanation for something that runs deeper.
      However there is this: “It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible.”Eric Hoffer in The True Believer.
      I think we can all fall into that trap as well.
  • David_Jay

    I feel like I am hitting my head against a wall, but here goes.

    There is a very big difference in saying "I am leaving this forum and not posting anymore" and what I said: "I am leaving this forum in the hands of those far better..." etc. I said I am going to sit back and listen.

    Second, I have not been to a Kingdom Hall since the 1990s. I am 50 years old. I know that people can be atheists, are atheists, I have atheist friends, I even dated and almost married an atheist. I not only believe in evolution, I have taught it. If you are suspecting ignorance and this is your response, it doesn't speak well of those who do as I have clearly mentioned these things and how much I actively support atheists.

    It is far from logical to believe that indulging one self to a situation where regular insults are an earmark will expand the EQ. Analytical thinking doesn't lend itself to insulting another. Lack of self-control and discipline do.

    Thus the suggestion to "strengthen your abilities to control your thoughts and emotions and focus them more clearly into rational thought and expression" by subjecting oneself to others who cannot respond rationally and respectfully is a paradox. While there is something to be said for the "no pain, no gain" model, such can only be successful where there are controls to how much "pain" can create benefit. Subjecting oneself to where such things cannot be controlled is not of benefit. Too much weight, too much exercise, and POW, no benefit whatsoever.

    I am convinced that you can do fine on your own without my input. You did not need it before, and by insulting you show you do not care for it now. You thus will not get it tomorrow. Insulting someone is not a way to welcome another or even treat a trusted friend. If you expect a positive response, you are expecting something like Stockholm Syndrome. Sorry, but I will never be grateful for such treatment from anybody.

    After hearing that and reading comments in support of that view, I now know I am in the wrong place. So instead of sitting back and reading and being quiet this should be my exit.

    It's not that the water's too cold to adjust to, it's that people keep swimming over and holding my head underwater until I almost drown. There's a difference. I'm human, like you. I also need to breathe, like you. I also need to be treated with respect, like you.

    Thanks for listening. Good luck on whatever you all do from here.

  • DJS

    Good luck David Jay,

    I don't see the transaction in the way you do. We presented evidence and/or rational argument. You disagreed with it but failed to provide counter evidence other than your feelings and beliefs. You emotionally twisted what was said, ignoring very important points such as 'correlation.' You responded with an arrogance rarely seen on this site by telling all of us how damned smart and educated you are, making it even more annoying by telling us that in and of itself makes you better.

    THAT was the first insult in this OP as far as I can see. Learn to refute evidence, provide counter evidence or remain quiet. Posturing as the smartest fukking person to ever be on this site, when you only recently joined it, will get you exactly what you deserved.

    The bottom line as I see it is you came into a site where you thought your amazingness and awesomeness would rule the day. It didn't quite work out like that now, did it? Stop playing the victim. Princess.

    Several if us held out olive branches to you, but playing the drama queen is all you seem intersted in doing.

    Stick around. It will mean you will have to put your big boy panties on, but it's clear that's what you need.

Share this