Did Jesus exist? Probably not

by The 12 Apostates 51 Replies latest jw friends

  • The 12 Apostates
    The 12 Apostates

    I'm not using the quote function anymore as it sucks, the formatting in the text box is crazy. So I'll use italics.

    Why not an actual man called Jesus?

    He may have been called Jesus, but the name isn't really the duck, he was far more than his name. He may or may not have been called Jesus, if it was just one man. That's the point, we don't even know basics like that.

    No of course not. That was invented to connect him to an OT prophecy. Matthew and Luke use very different stories to achieve that.

    That's one example that's known to be untrue, I probably shouldn't have started with it, but many of the others are just assumed to be true, and they are just assumptions in many cases.

    I think he did make claims of that sort. Otherwise his failed claims would have been written out of the story.

    But that's my point, we don't in fact know what claims he made as there are no eyewitness testimonies. The gospels are ultra-secondary sources. I'm going to stoop to the level of 'why not' now and ask, if the miracles were made up, why not much of the rest? I don't like arguments from ignorance, but I feel compelled to make that one.

    Why? Are the words attributed to Socrates any less interesting if they were written by somebody else and put in the mouth of a mythical Greek philosopher?

    I'm confused. I think you may have misread me there as that was exactly my point. Socrates's ideas are what's interesting, not so much his life story, assuming he existed, which I know is heavily disputed, hence I chose him as an example. Many of Jesus's sayings are rendered hollow if he didn't exist, Socrates's sayings aren't, unless he too at some point claimed to be the son of god.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Many of Jesus's sayings are rendered hollow if he didn't exist

    How so?

  • The 12 Apostates
    The 12 Apostates

    I gave an example at the very end. You can't be the son of god if you aren't real.

    Not that you could be to begin with of course, but it seems there are billions out there who genuinely believe it to be possible, if we are to assume that the majority of Christians actually do believe.

    I'm actually sceptical of that, perhaps the next thread should be about whether Christians really exist.

  • cofty
    cofty

    But you started off by claiming that the Jesus of the gospels is not based on a Jesus of history.

    The fact that his followers came to believe he was son of god says nothing about his historicity.

  • The 12 Apostates
    The 12 Apostates

    No, that's true, but this was in reference to your comparison of his historicity to the historicity of other historical figures. Not so much a question of his historicity but rather a question of the importance of his historicity.

  • cofty
    cofty

    It is a red herring.

    People have made extraordinary claims about all sorts of historical characters. We can dismiss those claims without asserting that the individuals did not exist.

  • The 12 Apostates
    The 12 Apostates

    No don't start pulling out logical fallacy 101 terms, this was a side issue that I never related to the central point, don't pretend otherwise.

    You can claim that other historical figures may not have existed all you like, but this thread is about our man JC. Perhaps Julius Caesar (the other great JC) never existed, I don't know. There's certainly more evidence that he did though.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Not so much a question of his historicity but rather a question of the importance of his historicity.

    Well that's a totally different subject.

    You should read the case for the historicity of Jesus by Bart Ehrman.

  • The 12 Apostates
    The 12 Apostates

    It wasn't a tangent I wanted to go down.

    EDIT: Thank you for the recommendation, I will look into his book.

  • cofty
    cofty
    You can claim that other historical figures may not have existed all you like, but this thread is about our man JC.

    I'm not questioning the historicity of anybody. I'm saying that all of your reasons to doubt the reality behind the Jesus of the gospels could equally be said about many other characters from history.

    You said in your OP that your thoughts are 'Based on the limited research I've conducted over the past few days'. I agree it is an interesting topic but I think you should dig a lot deeper.

    The best case for a historical Jesus is probably made by Bart Ehrman. The best and most recent case for a mythical Jesus is made by Richard Carrier.

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