Irrationality of in important teaching

by Ireneus 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Ireneus

    Jesus used illustration to make things clear. Hence imagine yourself in a situation which reminds you of an important teaching:

    You are in a Super Market, and you are told: “Someone has already paid for whatever you have purchased”[as Churches teach through their Ransom Sacrifice]

    yet when you turn another side, someone else says: “You have to pay for whatever you buy from here”[as we learned in School ‘every action has equal and opposite reaction’which means effect of sin cannot be swapped (Deuteronomy 24:16), hence each one has to pay for his sin]

  • Perry

    Hi Iraneus,

    The Watchtower has put forth huge elaborate schemes for one sole purpose in my opinion: To make the offer of an exchanged life unavailable to the JW member.

    They do this by:

    1. Teaching that Jesus died for Adam's loss...not yours.... Even though everyone will be judged individually AFTER they die (Heb. 9:27)

    2. A person can atone for their own sin just by dying.

    3. You cannot be Justified in this life, that's only for the 144K

    4. Jehovah is not your father, only your potential father.

    5. Jesus is not your Mediator

    The WT 's illogical massive effort to keep people from receiving a "free gift" was one of the major things that got me to thinking: what was it that they were trying so dang hard to hide?

    I am glad that I am not longer held prisoner by the idea that I cannot have EVERYTHING the scriptures say that I can have.

    The scripture you cite in Duet. is absolutely true. But notice how Romans ch. 6 deals with this for the Christian believer:

    Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    For he that is dead is freed from sin. [not acquitted like the NWT reads]

    Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

    Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more;

    death hath no more dominion over him.

    For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    The Christian receives a new spirit the moment he trusts Christ as his ONLY savior and Lord... apart from any religion or organization. His old spirit "dies" and he receives an incorruptible spirit as a down payment for when he is totally saved in spirit, soul & body at the resurrection (or rapture whichever comes first).

    The works of the "old man" to try and pay for something, however well intentioned are unacceptable, and even deeply offensive to God after Calvary. The life of a Christian is an exchanged life , "Yet not I, but Christ who lives in me". Gal. 2:20

    ...The ultimate "Prince & the Pauper" scenario.

    Hope this helps.

  • days of future passed
    days of future passed

    I was going to try to give an answer, but my head is spinning.

  • Ireneus


    You say all these because you were taught that way. What guarantee is there for those things to be true especially in view of the fact Jesus himself foretold truth will be overpowered by interpolators and false teachers who will be operating in “his name” (Mathew 13:24-30; 7:21-23).

    Listen to Jesus directly what he says: “Unless a seed falls into earth and dies, it cannot produce any grains.” His taking the unmistakable principle behind the eternal seed-tree mechanism makes all the difference—physical apparatus of the seed dies but life continues (which he further reiterated, with absolute clarity, through the famous parable of Lazarus and Rich man). Thus for Jesus, death was an expression of life, the most critical defining feature of life. When you die, you are making the ultimate undeniable assertion that you have been alive. In fact, death is even a precondition to life. That means life is already eternal because we are all “God’s image”, no one loses it, hence no one has to regain it for us—a point which William Shakespeare indirectly hints at: “What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god!”(Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2, Page 13) Yet this is what Bible put it with absolute clarity: “Eternity” resides in each one’s physical body. (Ecclesiastes 3:11)

    You can find many people thinking in above lines:

    “Surely God would not have created such a being as man, with an ability to grasp the infinite, to exist only for a day! No, no, man was made for immortality.” (Abraham Lincoln)

    “I would love to believe that when I die …. some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue.” (Carl Sagan)

  • stillin

    This thing about it being "written on their hearts" or just knowing, positively, "deep inside" that God loves you or some such.... that's all they have. Yes, I sort of envy them their self-assuredness, but it's a thin line between that and self-deception.

  • Perry

    Good Morning Ireneus,

    What guarantee is there for those things to be true especially in view of the fact Jesus himself foretold truth will be overpowered by interpolators and false teachers who will be operating in “his name”

    We know they are true because your can read it for yourself in the Word of God. If anyone teaches a doctrine that is new...alarm bells go off.

    If anyone teaches a doctrine of new light....alarm bells go off.

    If anyone says you have to defend God's name Jehovah to get saved instead of coming to Christ .... alarm bells go off.

    If anyone says you have to belong to their organization in order to get right with God ... alarm bells go off.

    Jesus said, "Come to Me, and I will give you rest". We get into trouble when we seek to do business with anyone other than Jesus, however, good reasonable, logical, righteous, or otherwise appealing it may seem. It is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

    My "sheep hear my voice" .... "another voice they simply will not follow".

    "I am the door" ... if anyone seeks to get in by some other way, he is a thief and a robber" - Jesus

    "though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal. 1: 8

    Everything has been frozen with the passing of the apostles. You can read it for yourself in the bible. Every now and then you can do a search for just about any doctrine and add the phrase "early church fathers" to your google search.

    That phrase sounds catholic I know, but it is the phrase the gets you to the early congregation elders and what they understood the apostles to mean. They wrote a LOT of stuff because the heretics of the day were putting forth all kinds of stuff designed to lead people away from the "sufficiency of Christ" Several were students of the apostles themselves.

    But the bible is the primary source, by far.

  • Perry
    Yet this is what Bible put it with absolute clarity: “Eternity” resides in each one’s physical body. (Ecclesiastes 3:11)
    You can find many people thinking in above lines:
    “Surely God would not have created such a being as man, with an ability to grasp the infinite, to exist only for a day! No, no, man was made for immortality.” (Abraham Lincoln)
    “I would love to believe that when I die …. some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue.” (Carl Sagan)

    The soul is eternal, like its creator. It was designed for unending fellowship with God so that they may enjoy each other forever. I wrote this page with JWs in mind on the topic.

    Because of its very nature, the soul cannot be annihilated. This is a two edged sword. Imagine being in "outer darkness" separated from everything for eternity. And, this is the best destination described in the scriptures for the lost, other places are far worse. Why? Because God is Pro Choice. No one can ever claim that God didn't give them what they wanted.

    The Gates of Hell are all locked from the inside.

    God's wants people to believe him so that he can spoil them, pour out his blessing on them and so that they can learn about him forever, since he is the Repository of all that is good, and all knowledge that currently is known or that will ever be known.

    Unbelief separates a person from God's treasures, now and in eternity. Belief unlocks them all... Salvation being only the first of such treasures.

    But WOE to those who refuse the King's Treasures.

    Hebrews 10:29-31 (KJV)

    Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite (disrespectfully) unto the Spirit of grace? ...I will recompense [Give them what they want], saith the Lord.

    They will NEVER be able to stop their consciousness. They will have unending consciousness without God - alone and without common grace, that believer and unbeliever alike now enjoy.

    Most of the influences in this life (including many of the posters on this forum) are preparing people's minds to hate God so that they may curse him and exist apart from him for eternity.

    Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

    3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. - James (brother of Jesus)

  • Ireneus


    STILLIN has already sufficiently refuted all your points.

    If ransom teaching is from God, why is it irrational? Why didn't Jesus use his supernatural ability and skill to explain this teaching?

  • Perry

    No one has refuted anything. This is the sound doctrine taught by Jesus himself, his apostles, and all born again Christians for the last 2000 years. Good grief!

    • And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye [all of you] all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. - Mt. 26:27-28 (KJV)

    God spent 1500 years having people celebrate the Passover to get them ready for the arrival of the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". Remember that? That was where the blood of the lamb was placed above the door and on the posts. Those under the blood were saved.

    • For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us - 1 Cor. 5: 7

    I mean I get it that atheists, agnostics and others in other religions do not accept Christs death on their behalf. What boggles my mind though is people who read the scriptures (the SAME ones I do) and come up with the opposite of what is so clearly taught in the scriptures.... like the one cited above. It is just flat out weird, twilight zone sort of stuff.

    The only explanation is some sort of supernatural influence. It is just weird stuff I tell you.

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus - Romans 8: 1

    And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ - 2 Cor. 4:3

  • Ireneus


    Don’t behave like the slothful servant who hid the one talent in the ground. (Mathew 25:14-30) We are created in God’s “image.” (Genesis 1:26) Hence our thinking and reasoning should resemble that of God whose very basis is “reason” (Romans 12:1) as opposed to the commercial mind-set of priestly class who introduced the subject of sacrifice, says God’s faithful prophet Jeremiah himself (Jeremiah 8:8; 7:22, 31)

    1) Take any of the OT verses that supposedly foretells about Jesus, and read the WHOLE chapter where that verse appears—you will find it as referring to either Israel in general, or to a particular individual in that nation!

    2) When you hear Jesus died for our sins, you must ask ‘How is it possible?’

    Jesus himself declared that he came to fulfill the Law, not to dilute or destroy it. (Mathew 5:17) KILLING AN INNOCENT PERSON IN A CRULEST MANNER to atone for the sins of others is in effect fighting sin with greater sin.

    It is only pure reason that the Omniscient God Almighty will not be led into a situation where He will find Himself in utter helplessness that He will need the help of one of His children to come out of a crisis, or to find Himself in a situation that there is no other way than killing one innocent person—that too His own first born—longest loved son in the first place! Bringing the son through a virgin, and finally killing him through a cruelest manner, and making such a KILLING the basis of forgiveness of people’s sins CANNOT BE an idea originated with God, Jesus nor any prophet. Because fulfillment of such a scheme depends on God’s expectation of consistent behavior of hard-core sinners like Pharisees, which means God should depend on THE CO-OPERATION OF AVOWED SINNERS TO REMOVE SINS!? If it takes a greater sin (killing the innocent son) to remove lesser sins, what does God convey through ransom-teaching—SIN REMOVES SIN? Does it not back-fires on the very idea of arranging a sacrifice to atone for the sins? Would Almighty, All-wise God do such a thing? NEVER.

    Christendom argues that Satan is the force behind your sins, hence another supernatural person, Jesus, can arrange forgiveness of your sins! However, Jesus simply DISMISSED such ideas—the roles Satan or Adam who are supposed to have played with regard to sin—when he categorically declared: “A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him,” and each one will reap proportionate and appropriate consequences. (Mathew 12:35-37) His half-brother with whom Jesus might have had more interaction declares: “Each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” And God is the source of “every good and perfect gift,” (James 1:14-17) HENCE HE WILL NOT PLANT A TREE TO ENSURE SIN AND DEATH OF HIS CHILDREN using a formula called “one man sinned, hence all became sinners.” God’s servants are very clear on this subject—one cannot take the responsibility of other’s sin, nor contribute to other’s purity: “The righteous person will live by his faithfulness.” (Habakkuk 2:4; Romans 14:12) The unrighteous would suffer the consequences of their sin which means sin is obliterated through suffering of the sinner.” (Luke 6:38; Galatians 6:7)

    If ransom teaching is true, then it only creates more problem than it supposedly solves

    Jesus says some are “good,” (Mathew 12:35) hence not in need of any sacrifice like ransom sacrifice.

    Those who die too do not need ransom sacrifice “as the wages sin pays is death,” (Romans 6:23) hence those who die are absolved of their sins because of the very fact they died: “He that is dead is freed from sin.” (Romans 6:7) Put it simply:

    THE GOOD do not need ransom

    THE DEAD do not need ransom (the living will also die at some point anyway)

    Then for whom did Jesus die? The fact is that Jesus was a threat to the religious establishment of that time because of his simple teaching. Enmity was also aggravated by Jesus’s own scathing criticism of them calling them hypocrite, white-washed tombs, brood of vipers, and also publicly whipping them out of the temple—that too TWICE. And “they began for some way to kill Jesus” (Mark 11:18), they got rid of him! Here, where is the sacrifice? Or who sacrificed whom?—Compare John 7:28; Luke 22:42. If Jesus really came to give ransom, naturally all his talks would have been centered over this FUNDAMENTAL concept using all his skills and reasoning powers, explaining why and how of such an arrangement. On the contrary, the only passing, feeble comment he supposedly made in the context of contrasting the rulers of Gentile as found in Mathew 20:28, Luke himself, on close examination, found as interpolation, hence removed from his Gospel. (Luke 22:25-27) The portion you cite where Jesus supposedly speaks of him offering wine as symbol of his blood for the atonement of sins of the world, from John’s gospel, is obviously a later adoption made as a basis for Church’s holy mass arrangement, just like John 3:13 was put into Jesus’ mouth.

    Reason why ransom teaching become popular?

    Just like diseases spread, ransom teaching too spread like wild-fire, because of the nature of people in general who want teaching “pleasurable to their ears.” (2 Timothy 4:3) The very thought that ‘there is someone who takes care of our sins’ is not only pleasurable to the ears but also to the mind and heart! One’s ego will be thrilled over such prospect! Will it contribute to holiness of people? Look at the fruitage! (Mathew 7:16, 17) Did ransom teaching contribute to more holiness or to more loose-conduct? What does the moral climate of the Christians show?

    If Teaching of Ransom sacrifice is true, there are some other things too must be true such as ‘earth is the center of universe, and God has ego-problem …etc because the very basis of ransom-teaching lies in the middle of the story of Adam and Eve which starts claiming earth is the center of the universe (Genesis 2:4); and ends with showing God is having ego-problem. (Genesis 3:22-24) [Adam and Eve account is actually a parallel creation account appearing after the original creation account which says all mankind were created SIMULTANEOUSLY in ‘God’s image’ (Genesis chapter 1), something Jesus confirmed in Mathew 23:9]

    When you read the Bible you must also weed out from the Bible! Then only you will benefit from Jesus, the great ‘teacher,’ who was sent by God (John 8:28, compare Acts 3:13) to turn people “from evil to do good” (Psalm 37:27) and to restore us to the “image” of God, whose primary attribute is goodness. (Mark 10:18). Traces of sin are not in our body, it is in our egoistic thinking. When you change the thinking (good or bad), your destiny is changed accordingly. No one else can do that for you.

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