Universal Sovereignty

by incognito2014 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • incognito2014

    I always thought this was nonsense, just an excuse for why there’s suffering.

    But just assuming there really is this very long period of human history to allow God to prove his sovereignty.

    This issue that affects every being not just on the planet but in the universe

    It’s a big deal and one that is so important that billions of people have had to suffer for 6,000 years.

    So how does God prove his sovereignty, well we have a clue by the real issues facing mankind that the society are highlighting right now. They have got to the crux of it all.

    If we could just stop wearing tight trousers, misusing pillows and purchasing ice creams!!!!

  • stillin

    Well, that puts it all into perspective!

  • chilango

    Several defects with the U.S.:

    We don't know that Adam and Eve had free will. They might have had faux free will imagining they had the ability to NOT sin, but lacked the capacity in at least this instance. We assume they did, they too if the record is true.

    The same could be said of any sentient being including Satan.

    Do we have it? Did they have it? We don't know, but we assume.

    Another thing is the idea that there was a point to all this continuing, namely to see how well we'd proceed without God interjecting himself in free will, however multiple times he did so.

    First, by allowing angels to mess around on the planet, second by the flood, third by the confusion of languages. We have no parallel universe to compare with to see what might have been without intervention.

    Of course Paul would basically blow off the question later as 'impertinent' :

    Ro. 9:20-22 But who are you, O man, to be answering back to God?+ Does the thing molded say to its molder: “Why did you make me this way?”+ 21 What? Does not the potter have authority over the clay+ to make from the same lump one vessel for an honorable use, another for a dishonorable use? 22 What, then, if God had the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, and he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction?

    Here Paul says the issue is Power, but what does Paul really know? He basically guessed about so many things and speculated as to the reasons. Here Paul is at a loss to explain God in moral terms, but instead is reduced to a crude "Who's the most powerful one in this room?" as an answer.

    All the years I spent knocking and it became apparent that perhaps the angels are idiots and their mental retardation is the reason this charade has been running for so very long, so humans have to suffer their idiocy because we're a spectacle to them so they can get the point. Humans are the whipping boys for the rich 1%'er angels who look on through it all just not able to comprehend just how evil evil is because they are galactically slow in their understanding. Whipping up human bodies like meat-suits is easy, but understanding how evil is evil takes them millenniums to get the point.

    So the issue of U.S. is simply an insufficient answer to the whole issue of evil.

    Unless evil is the point.

    If evil is the point, then and one has to choose between inevitable evil and free will, then are we saying that we all wish we didn't have free will? Once again, maybe we don't.

    I remember once asking someone if Jehovah could have made Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity with faux free will such that we imagined we had the capacity for an evil act and these thoughts could flit momentarily through our minds until these were overridden by our imagined 'free will' so the end result would have been no sin, no death, no need for a redeemer?

    I said in response:

    We'd feel happy and be happy and be living forever in a paradise even now and rejoicing over our good sense to shun evil (even though we never realized we absolutely lacked the capacity).

    Why would Jehovah do that, I asked?

    He said, Jehovah would know.

    My response was "So it's all about him, then."

    The problem of evil remains the biggest problem and I can't even begin to make up an answer that works.

    Other Things I'd read:

    1. It's our fault.

    2. There is no evil, that's just the way you look at it

    3. To teach us a lesson.

    None of this works for me and unless you have Stockholm syndrome, I'm not sure how you can make it work.

    I used to imagine it was all Universal Salvation like some of the Unitarians in the early 19th century concluded (even though this wasn't WT doctrine. I never worshiped the GB like it seemed so many did) but none of this makes sense to me any more.

    Do I believe there is a creator still? Yes, but I'm not sure about his reasons or his character. I can't be anything but what I am, a human so I can't view things or even imagine them from such an alien perspective. I can't worship any creature whose morals seem twisted from my viewpoint. The issue of U.S. is supposed to be an explanation and the ransom is likewise, but the more you dig, the shakier even the Bible becomes. It reads like Jorge Luis Borges stories with his use of magical realism. We read about a city in the scriptures, archaeology confirms it existed, we read inscriptions, and these are confirmed and in the midst of the text a miracle occurs of which we cannot verify took place. All we have is the hope people didn't intentionally lie, and they may not have, however these accounts still could have been wrong in their interpretation of the source of the miraculous.

    I'll stop here...just stream of consciousness anyway

  • zeb

    At a time when home loan interest rates hit a destructive ...18% with scores of families across the nation losing their homes at the very next convention the blow hard elder ranted on about universal sovereignty as the major issue in the world. At his opening line I recall seeing heads shake.

    The set up here like or not is that banks et al can increase the rates as they see fit according to 'market forces' etc..

    currently they are very low compared.

  • waton
    currently they are very low compared. zeb.

    which means savers do not have free will, as their savings lose purchasing power at the rate of inflation.

    The whole sovereignty of god is a red herring. The universe is ruled by laws, nobody can escape them. or tries at her peril.

  • nowwhat?

    We humans are not to question God but it's ok for the angels to? God feels he has to prove to the angels that it's his way or the highway. With us humans being the pawns?

  • smiddy3

    Universal Sovereignty ? Don`t the Jehovah`s Witnesses / Watchtower have the bull by the tale and got it all arse about ?

    Angels / Spirit creation are a step up the ladder than what humans are in intellect and power ..They also apparently can flit about all over the universe at will .

    Whereas humans are limited in what they can do and are confined to this earth which severely restricts them from having much of an influence as to what happens in the universe .

    So isnt it more logical for the Angels/Spirit creatures to be dealt with the question and answer of universal sovereignty " and not humans ?

    Especially so since it was an Angel that tricked humans in the first place ?

    Shouldn`t the onus be put on them to prove Jehovah`s Universal sovereignty and not humans ?

  • days of future passed
    days of future passed

    How funny. This was what I was talking about with my sister this afternoon. What really in in the bible that says God has to wait for mankind to try every different government before he brings Armageddon? I brought up this subject to her because of a program I watched on forensic archaeology. A woman was found buried on her side, a baby by her shoulder, one between her legs and one by her feet. The wrap up of the show was that the woman had been carrying triplets at around age 30. It is very common that one of the babies will be in the breach position as it tries to exit the body which effectively blocks it from being born. The woman had given birth to one child, (the one by her shoulder) but was unable to birth the other two because of a breached baby. So she died, the baby that was delivered died (because there wasn't milk for it). The other two were expelled from the body after she was buried because of the decomposing process that produces a lot of gas. So they were found between her legs.

    It's just a small sample of the suffering that all people have gone thru since "God" expelled mankind from the garden. What kind of person feels justified in putting, not the offenders, but their offspring, thru this torture? Witnesses don't think of things that way - I didn't - they are just taught to make excuses for God.

    Universal Sovereignty - just another way the marketing department, spins an excuse for "God" doing nothing.

  • Xanthippe

    They bang on about universal sovereignty being the biggest issue in the world because the vindication of Jehovah's name is supposedly paramount.

    I think this is a dead giveaway to what's going on in the mind of JWs, they desperately want vindication. Vindication in the eyes of their neighbours, colleagues, nonJW family, all the 'worldly' people they know.

    It's hard standing out as a weirdo with crazy beliefs. They want their whole life to be vindicated, even if it's only a few minutes before the unbelievers get nuked by their loving creator.

  • WTWizard

    It took Abrahamic religions (jews, xians, and muslims together) just 6,000 years to ruin what 4.5 billion years of evolution and about 500,000 years of guidance from Satan (who in Hebrew means enemy but in Sanskrit, which I respect far more, means truth) to create. Universal sovereignty to destroy life every time it is about to become self-sufficient?

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