Is reasoning with a JW the answer?

by Saved_JW 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Saved_JW
    Saved_JW

    When I first left the Watchtower Society, I can remember being very eager to learn new information, especially information which pertained to discrediting the Watchtower Organization. I called it "The Cage Stage"

    This excitement and newfound change in worldview completely rocked my world. As if though I had found a treasure hidden right under my nose. This newfound excitement transpired into the way I talked with Jehovah's Witnesses. I had assumed that just because I had information that was based in fact, they would in fact respond with the same level of excitement as me. If the truth stands on its own merit, there is nothing that can go against it!

    Or...So I thought anyways.

    On the surface the Watchtower Organization creates a culture that is very black and white. Being "In the truth" is not a matter of feeling or conjecture, its simply a matter of "fact" [or so says the Watchtower] The same goes with any doctrine that comes down the pipeline of information disseminated from the Watchtower. Very rarely do you see doctrines that are in the grey. It either is, or isn't.

    For those of us who have left the Watchtower, this type of mentality can leave us to assume that the way we talk to Jehvoah's Witnesses should mirror that of the Watchtower. Because after all, this is the language that we know and are familiar with.

    I have learned a lot in the past 8 years, and the more I interact with JW's, I have come to realize that the core of the individual belief system is rooted in Fear. Which is ultimately an expression of emotion. I like to call it Fear feigning as facts

    Fear is a powerful manipulative tool the Watchtower uses to ultimately gain control over the actions of its adherents. The one major weak point of using fear is that in many cases, it does not gain the heart of an individual.

    One time when I was a kid, I remember being punished by my father. I was so angry at the situation, but I was still ordered to split an entire cord of wood and stack it by days end. At the end of the day, I was still angry at my father, and I was not repentant for the crime I had been punished for. But all that mattered was I do my task as Ordered and all was forgiven.

    I think the same thing goes with the Watchtower. You gain advancement in the organization based on outward conformity, metrics, appearance, etc... Very little weight is based on an individuals love for God [Jehovah] his prayer life, or his continual relationship with God.

    As I said, fear is a great tool to use, if the only thing an organization is concerned about is surface level results and outward conformity.

    New Goal in how to talk to Witnesses

    Since coming to a deep understanding of this emotional predisposition that JW's hold to, I have changed the way I approach witnesses, both friends and family. I go into a conversation with the understanding that they don't respect me. [I know they love me] but the issue is they Trust and Respect the Watchtower first. Its not my goal to win an argument, neither is it my goal to come up with the best argument. Its my goal to win their trust, which again is rooted in Emotion.

    I don't think of this as an emotional tactic. In fact, this is all rooted in simply being myself. In fact, I think when most people try to win over a JW's they are in fact "Playing games" with them. If you approach a conversation not concerned about the individual you are speaking with, or simply trying to win an argument, this is rooted in your own Ego.

    In conclusion, a JW will never be logically convinced against an argument they have emotionally succumbed to. The goals of our conversations should be rooted in our love and concern for the person we are speaking with. Because at the end of the day, they believe that the Watchtower cares about them, therefore this is ultimately the only authority they can trust.

    So is reasoning with a JW the answer? Of course it is. But remember the foundation of their belief is not rooted in sound reasoning to begin with. I try to tackle to core of the issue first. The misplaced dedication and loyalty to the Watchtower itself, rooted in fear. When speaking with JW's, they know I am a person they can trust. and I don't live up to the stereotypes that the Watchtower places on "apostates"

    Even if the decide to stay in the Watchtower, they will always know that there is somebody who cares about them on the outside, a Safety Net if you will... the next time they decide to reevaluate their circumstances.

  • hybridous
    hybridous

    'To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.'
    - Thomas Paine

    Good OP. I like this stuff. Not that it's helped me 'rescue' one family member in. But it's edifying, and serves (to some extent) in smoothing out some rough edges when dealing with JW family. To know them, know their motivations; their fears. This can be useful.

    I've largely given up on trying to reason with JWs. One cannot reason them out of beliefs they did not reason themselves into at the start. It helps to know the family history. How some simple-minded and gullible people got scared, and foisted nonsense onto their kids, who didn't know anything else. And 2 generations later, here we are.

    I like your closing remarks about being someone who cares - the 'safety net'. I'm maintaining contact with the family for just that purpose. It's hard to do this, while having no expectations at all that it will be used.



  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Is reasoning with a JW the answer?

    ............................Reasoning With a Jehovah`s Witness?..

    http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111135553/5087539-image.gif

  • megaboy
    megaboy

    Do either of you know of any moderately intelligent witnesses? I find it hard to believe not a one of them holds the ability to reason on ANYTHING they are presented with.

    Its basic really, if something looks like a duck, like say a goose its not a duck as when you hear its cry its not the same.

    If they claim they are chosen by God by how they present themselves but not in their true nature, they do not hold or know wisdom, divine or common. Their love is conditional.

    Their doctrine shows a weak foundation, so they constantly have to perform mainteince on their house. The materials will eventually get so weak the storm will come and tare it down altogether.

    None of these qualities reflect anything divine. So one with a good mind would know to avoid it, or pack up their bags. Even if one claims to depend on them, you can't depend on living in a house with a bad foundation. I surely wouldn't reccomend it.

  • cofty
    cofty
    'To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.'
    - Thomas Paine

    It's a mistake to assume all JWs do not care about facts and reason.

    One cannot reason them out of beliefs they did not reason themselves into at the start.

    I disagree. As a JW I cared very much about being able to defend the "truth" of my beliefs. As soon as I realised it was false I left despite the personal cost. I was not unique.

    JWs are as varied as any other group. Treat them as individuals.

    Showing them you care and challenging their beliefs with sound reasoning are not mutually exclusive.

  • jacobm
    jacobm

    @outlaw

    I lol'd.

    just live a great life, and keep your side of the street clean. they might, just maybe, think: Wow that apostate is so happy and lives a happy & moral life. I wonder why?

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe

    I posted similar thoughts a while back: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/474120002/why-trying-reason-jw-out-cult-lost-cause-what-solution-might

    While I definitely believe there's a place for reason and facts and all that jazz in waking up a JW, I think it takes a secondary role. I woke up purely because I determined the doctrine to be false and I had been intentionally lied to, but I still had to be in the right emotional place before I could accept that. There had been sufficient evidence to tell me I was in a cult for my entire adult life, but accepting the evidence and seeking out more potentially faith-destroying evidence is something that most will not do until they're emotionally ready to do so.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    cofty - "It's a mistake to assume all JWs do not care about facts and reason..."

    Agreed.

    They just tend to become EX-JWs.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Some people play cards with deuces Wild.

    JW's, for instance. (A Wild card can be anything you want it to be. JW's want JW doctrine to be "true.")

    If you try to "reason" with a JW, you are playing by THEIR (deuces Wild) rules.

    In other words, they're set up to win and you're not.

  • baker
    baker
    Mary Wollstonecraft (1759-1797), the famous British writer and feminist (and mother to the author of Frankenstein), included the quotation "Convince a man against his will, He's of the same opinion still."

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