Anointed Directing the Anointed?

by compound complex 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • prologos

    leaving _quietly. are you trying to take our fun away with this idea we like?

    "Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ at his arrival." The wt writer's application of this text is: First:- Presence of JC in 1914, war, cleansing of heavens in 1914, resurrection of dead anointed, firstfruits, into cleansed heavens starting in 1918, instant resurrection of current anointed, (the overlapped and overlappers) until his arrival to Judge the Sheep & Goats prior to Armageddon, and concurrently, at this last arrival, rapture the last anointed the overlappers. thus all anointed can participate in The war and the abyssing of satan and Demons.

    Therefore the wt claim, that Christ and the already anointed participate in directing affairs on earth. The new book "God's Kingdom Rules" is all about that.

    So, all kind of Communications going on here. Revelation came to us From God through Christ to John, all the beasts, trumpets, now it is better. all that and now additionally filtered through the likes of R&R , Fr. Fr,-- Trying to explain why the Last Day just lasts and lasts -- reaching from beyond their graves to unfalsify false prophecy.

  • millie210

    I have been reading their literature for many years and how I always missed the fact that they prefaced nearly every important statement with a disclaimer is sad!

    "It appears", "therefore we can conclude"," it is reasonable to assume" the list goes on and on.

    Good thread CC!

  • Vidiot

    @ millie210...

    Strange to attach said disclaimers to virtually every statement, yet require the reading membership to take the statement as immutable fact, as though the disclaimer wasn't even there.

  • Vidqun

    The fact that "elders," in the vicinity of God's throne, is mentioned as early as Is. 24:23 would not support their assumption. And how is it that John addresses the elder as "lord" if he was his brother?

    A well known dictionary had the following comment: As early as Is. 24:23 “elders” are mentioned in connection with God’s enthronement. The fact that these are not depicted in a judicial capacity does not rule out their judicial function. One of the elders would act as godly spokesman and interpreter, while as a group they would glorify God and proclaim His judgments (cf. Rev. 5:5; 7:13; 11:16-18):

    The two passages Ex. 24 and Nu. 11 exerted considerable influence on other parts of the Bible and on Jewish exegesis. In obvious dependence on Ex. 24:9 f. the late apc. in Is., depicting world judgment and the manifestation of the coming kingdom of Yahweh on Zion and in Jerusalem, closes with the words: “And before his elders is glory,” Is. 24:23. The passage is a first example of the way in which apocalyptic likes to base its eschatological visions on sacred texts, so that it is itself to a large extent exegesis. In relation to Is. 24:23, Rev. 4 follows the same pattern in its vision of the 24 elders before the throne of God, → 668, 9 ff.

    The 24 πρεσβύτεροι in Revelation. Special problems are raised by the passages in Rev. in which, in the visions of the divine, 24 elders surround the throne of God in heaven along with the four beasts, 4:4, 10; 5:6, 8, 11, 14; 7:11; 11:16; 14:3; 19:4. The thrones on which they sit (4:4; 11:16), the white robes and the crowns which adorn them (4:4), show that they are heavenly beings, and the title πρεσβύτεροι suggests that they are God’s council of elders (cf. Dan. 7:10). Yet there is no mention of God sitting in council with them nor do they seem to discharge a judicial office, cf. 20:4. Their function is not the exercising of their own dominion; it is simply adoration of the majesty of Him who sits on the throne (4:10; 19:4) and of the exalted Lamb (5:8–10) → θρόνος, III, 165, 21 ff. They sink to the ground, offer worship, and cast down their crowns before the throne of the eternal and omnipotent God (4:10) with songs of praise (4:11; 5:9 f.; 11:17 f.; 19:4 etc.). According to 5:8 they offer priestly ministry for the earthly community with harps and golden vials. Their divine service in heaven accompanies the events of redemption and judgment on earth, which the elders inaugurate and conclude with gesture and song. [1]

    There is no suggestion that these elders are redeemed and transfigured men. They are plainly differentiated from the transfigured, 7 and 14. They are also distinguished from the angelic hosts (5:11; 7:11) which surround the throne and the four beasts. But they are so only as a higher class of angels which is closer to the throne of God than the others and which is entrusted in a peculiar way with His secrets. “One of the elders” functions as angelus interpres (5:5; 7:13) and the seer addresses him by the title of majesty, κύριος, 7:14.

    [1] See Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. VI, pp. 656, 668.

  • Listener

    This is where their speculation gets them into trouble. They don't know who is communicating with them?

    It is clear that whoever is communicating with them is not from God otherwise they would not be relaying false information.

  • Vidqun
    Yes, Listener, you've got a point. Are they perhaps lending their ear to "the angel of light"? In their commentary on Rev. 4:4 in the Revelation Climax-book (p. 77), they reason that the 24 elders are those of the anointed that had been resurrected to heaven, i.e., their brothers. Yet they insist the first resurrection had started in 1919. But not only were the 24 elders already present in heaven before that date, but one of them spoke to John (ca. 100 CE).
  • Lieu

    Why do they think sheep and goats need judgement? Also, I don't like how they look down on goats as if they were bad creatures. 😆

    This is what happens when you don't have a basic understanding of Bible 101. You end up misconstruing everything Jesus said. For Jesus was both a sheep and a goat.

    One separates the sheep from the goats because:

    1. Sheep are used for Passover, they represent keeping death away.

    2. Goats are used for the Day of Atonement(Yom Kippur), they represent forgiveness of and the taking away of sin.

    The two holiest days, one uses a sheep, the other goats. They represent Gods grace from sin and death. Anyhow, Jesus was using a simple analogy about separation in terms that first century Hebrew people would easily understand.

    There is NO class of good sheep and bad goats.

    IF they were annointed as they claim, they'd know this basic Bible stuff.

  • Lieu
    It kinda all gets thrown to heck if you think about the 12 seeing Jesus conversing with Moses and Elijah ....
  • leaving_quietly

    leaving _quietly. are you trying to take our fun away with this idea we like?

    It kinda all gets thrown to heck if you think about the 12 seeing Jesus conversing with Moses and Elijah ....

    Except it was only three, not the twelve.

    "28 In fact, about eight days after saying these words, he took Peter, John, and James along and climbed up the mountain to pray. 29 And as he was praying, the appearance of his face changed and his clothing became glitteringly white. 30 And look! two men were conversing with him; they were Moses and E·liʹjah.

    Luke 9:28-30

  • prologos

    2. Goats are used for the Day of Atonement(Yom Kippur), they represent forgiveness of and the taking away of sin.

    Goat meat is really delicious, whereas Lamb is iffy . but goats butt, you could find yourself bumped so: wt has Other Sheep, why not Other Goats? In the Churches, the OS are the Gentile Anointed , since Cornelius,-- in wt, it is the non-Anointed which came to new light only in 1935,.-- Peter Paul and Mary on the other hand have been whispering to Brooklyn, directing since 1918.

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